New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

FrantzM said:

We have a civilization whose infrastructure was based on Petrol as the main source of Energy. It has to change and it is changing. Ineluctably. The reasons are not moral but practical. Petrol-based energy is not sustainable. it never was.
Change is disruptive. Even our Electrical Grids which is what electric cars use, after all, don't cope well with renewable energy generators ( Wind, Solar, etc) . Electric Grids were built on Petrol with Generators working all the time at full power. Renewable work in strange ways .. For example clouds can create serious disturbances in energy production thus distribution
The move to non-petrol is however inevitable. Countries who lag will be surpassed; as simple as that.
Electric cars are the future whether they are battery or fuel cell based is an aside. ICE car days are numbered. Tesla may be the flag-bearer for electric cars but traditional Car manufacturers are not standing by idly waiting to fold and die. They are actively pursuing electric cars.
Frankly the performances of Electric cars are staggering. I understand that doing drag race with a Tesla is likely to burn its battery. Same with any ICE cars. The laughable limitation on the Bugatti being prime examples.. yes it can do 340 Km/h but for only 12 minutes or so and you may need to replace at a cost of $70,000 (Yes you read it right) its $20,000 tires after such a run... Enough to buy a Tesla At least one could fathom to drive the Tesla coast to coast ..

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the US is selling all of 150k EVs a year, while hybrid sales are in decline. net-net, less than 3% of all sales are "green cars". This % only was higher when oil was $140. but the fact is, the world is awash in oil these days. breakevens for new exploration are now below $40 which means even less a chance of oil going up. and OPEC can't do a thing about it! woohoo!

i think fuel cells are probably the future in 30 years but EVs with ultra heavy, lithium ion batteries are a bridge product at best. they just aren't cost competitive with ICE right now.

KeithR said:

the US is selling all of 150k EVs a year, while hybrid sales are in decline. net-net, less than 3% of all sales are "green cars". This % only was higher when oil was $140. but the fact is, the world is awash in oil these days. breakevens for new exploration are now below $40 which means even less a chance of oil going up. and OPEC can't do a thing about it! woohoo!

i think fuel cells are probably the future in 30 years but EVs with ultra heavy, lithium ion batteries are a bridge product at best. they just aren't cost competitive with ICE right now.

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would you like to know what the manufacturers think, without naming names?

"we will only make as many green cars as we have to. to run a good company we must focus on cars that we can make a profit on. we lose our ass on green cars and it's a waste of time and no one wants them, and especially no one wants to pay what it costs to build them."

"so how this all goes is that all customers end up paying for the few green cars somewhere. they take away from other R & D that needs to be done.....and absorb resources better used elsewhere."

this is what happens when government tries to legislate technology. the market is much better equipped to choose winners than Congress....or state governments.

everyone pays more for their cars so the bleeding hearts in California can have their precious 10% zero emissions cars.

btw; I do think that government does need to have some say in emissions standards and safety. but the requirements have gone way too far before the technology is capable of reasonably delivering it. most other technology products are now cheaper to buy than in the past. but not cars. the 'creep' is mostly the unseen regulation tax every car carries.

Hi

I understand. The changes are unsettling but they shall happen. That we find more petrol doesn't make it more sustainable. Technology won't stop and cars of the future won't be ICE.
Now most tesla owners are happy owners. Few, very few have negative about their cars and frankly the thing a Tesla does make of these a car at the service of its owner. Which is what I need from a car at this juncture in my life ( so do many others on this board)...

Reading about a Tesla from books and experiencing a tesla are two different thing. One week with a Tesla car may convince many, may convert even more .. For once there are things many Tesla do routinely that are the stuff of Science Fiction ... Like opening the garage door and driving itself to a spot you decide from the car key/fob... Or the autopilot which works and in stop and go traffic is a marvel... Or the cat making sure you are engage in driving it IOW the autopilot checks out constantly if you are aware of what it does ... The music system is very good BTW and has a few tricks of its own .. I am a Tesla fanatic and am waiting patiently to get mine but I do understand the resistance: I was an Android user for years before getting an iPhone.. Tesla is as close to an iPhone in its way of anticipating your needs better than any car on the road and the performance are not shabby. Handling is good and in line with most Touring sedans.. I haven't driven their sports car ( which I don't think is made anymore) so I can't tell how it handles but the Model S handles as well as any MB or Lexus in its class... Reliability of the model S is good, not great then again I own a G-Wagon ... so I know a thing or 2 about "just average" reliability..

Electric cars do rely on the Electrical grid and part of their attraction is due to the fact that Electricity is relatively cheap in most (developed ?) countries. The Electrical system needs to find ways to wean itself from petrol and it is happening, slowly... Profit motives would not push that kind of change IOW the market won't, if it is left to its devices. That is what a Government must do, that his how a government push a country forward.This is not done without hurt.. "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" comes to mind. Sometimes people need to be forced into a direction .. I could be wrong: Isn't it how HDTV was basically rammed down our throats?? And a few years later , we are happy for it? Is anyone lamenting analog low def TV? ... Same with renewable energy. We will find ways... Often brought in by the profit motives and a few well-placed incentives

Amen brother!

Oil is the most heavily subsidized commodity on the planet. However, the subsidy mostly goes to big oil...not the consumers.

If we saw the TRUE cost of oil...then the whole system would be turned on its head.

In Europe , petrol pays for road infrastructure. In the US how is this financed? By the look of NY/NJ/PA highways....it seems nobody invests a dime.

Indeed, the roads here are terrible. When I drive the A8 in southern France, I can only wish we had roads like that here. It helps that roads are twice as thick there and in Germany. Costs more up front but much less to upkeep.

Tesla's magic formula is having a unique product that taps into a 'green movement' based on subsidies and a huge government loan......which creates a value equation that is attractive and PC enough to get away with direct selling. in many cases the Tesla is the 3rd or 4th car in the garage.....where it's statement of 'cool' is as much or more a part of the ownership vibe as any green sensitivity.

we will see how this works when the light of day (competitive products and subsidies gone) shines under their rock. and whether the crazy naïve inefficiencies of the Tesla manufacturing process can get solved in time to allow it to compete. real world auto manufacturing is not for the less than stellar players.

direct selling has been tried many times by auto manufacturers and failed. they never had the entrepreneurial spirit to compete with franchised dealers. Tesla broke the code with overwhelming product value and market timing. what are the odds of it continuing to work when their product is no longer unique and apart? and Tesla's infrastructure to support their product gets exposed by all these additional cars on the road.

if I was a betting man.........

Third or fourth car in the garage? We have three cars. My son gets the 2005 Volvo. I have to fight with my wife to drive the Model S. why. Because it is the best of the three cars to drive by far. Blows away the E350. The most fun too. Yes, there will be tons of electric cars in 10 years. Yes Tesla will have more competition. Like any other company, they will have to meet those challenges. As for dealers, I can tell you I don't miss the high costs they quote me for repairs and the constant pushing for work that really doesn't need to be done. Frankly, I dread when I have to take the car in to a dealer. Kind of like going to a dentist. Seems that costs are lower in all businesses when you can cut out the middleman. You have a financial stake in that model. I get that. Do you have issues buying direct in other areas. How about audio. If you could buy an MSB DAC direct and save 20, 30 or more % wouldn't you? If they back up their product with service? If their products are reliable? Teslas, at least in theory, have less moving parts and require less regular maintenance, hence, less need for a dealer to service. They also have mobile service teams that come to your home, free of charge to make repairs or adjustments. If and that's a big if, they can produce and deliver as many model 3's that have been ordered in the next 2 or 3 years, over 400,000 and they are reliable, I have no doubt about their future. We will see. In the meantime, we are enjoying the hell out of our car, even on these crappy roads.

Joe Whip said:

Third or fourth car in the garage? We have three cars. My son gets the 2005 Volvo. I have to fight with my wife to drive the Model S. why. Because it is the best of the three cars to drive by far. Blows away the E350. The most fun too. Yes, there will be tons of electric cars in 10 years. Yes Tesla will have more competition. Like any other company, they will have to meet those challenges. As for dealers, I can tell you I don't miss the high costs they quote me for repairs and the constant pushing for work that really doesn't need to be done. Frankly, I dread when I have to take the car in to a dealer. Kind of like going to a dentist. Seems that costs are lower in all businesses when you can cut out the middleman. You have a financial stake in that model. I get that. Do you have issues buying direct in other areas. How about audio. If you could buy an MSB DAC direct and save 20, 30 or more % wouldn't you? If they back up their product with service? If their products are reliable? Teslas, at least in theory, have less moving parts and require less regular maintenance, hence, less need for a dealer to service. They also have mobile service teams that come to your home, free of charge to make repairs or adjustments. If and that's a big if, they can produce and deliver as many model 3's that have been ordered in the next 2 or 3 years, over 400,000 and they are reliable, I have no doubt about their future. We will see. In the meantime, we are enjoying the hell out of our car, even on these crappy roads.

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I completely understand the value proposition with the last few years of the Tesla S. and agree with you on all that and respect the attraction.....which I stated above.

my points are related to whether Tesla and it's 'vibe' can compete on an even playing field?

it's never been done yet. they have huge issues to overcome. only time will tell.

if Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, and BMW have competitive offerings with Tesla, can the Tesla manufacturing efficiencies and marketing abilities carve out a long term market share?

it's had zero competitors up till now. we have no idea what customers will do when there is direct competition. the real market is a tough thing.

stay tuned.

Mike Lavigne said:

Tesla's magic formula is having a unique product that taps into a 'green movement' based on subsidies and a huge government loan......which creates a value equation that is attractive and PC enough to get away with direct selling. in many cases the Tesla is the 3rd or 4th car in the garage.....where it's statement of 'cool' is as much or more a part of the ownership vibe as any green sensitivity.

we will see how this works when the light of day (competitive products and subsidies gone) shines under their rock. and whether the crazy naïve inefficiencies of the Tesla manufacturing process can get solved in time to allow it to compete. real world auto manufacturing is not for the less than stellar players.

direct selling has been tried many times by auto manufacturers and failed. they never had the entrepreneurial spirit to compete with franchised dealers. Tesla broke the code with overwhelming product value and market timing. what are the odds of it continuing to work when their product is no longer unique and apart? and Tesla's infrastructure to support their product gets exposed by all these additional cars on the road.

if I was a betting man.........

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No doubt that subsidies are helping Tesla but they were not made for Tesla. The company just took advantage of these and it seems to be working. others will follow if it hasn't happened yet. Software is their key to success and while on the surface it looks easy to replicate just look at how far software has taken Apple or Google or Uber or AirBnB or Amazon? These companies are essentially a software offering a service. The incumbents with all their might weren't able to match their success let alone taking them over.
i am in IT and remember how Cisco was viewed by the telecom/IT community when it faced the Lucent, Northern Telecom, Motorola, et al of this world .. Most of those companies are gone or utterly irrelevant. Traditional car companies are keenly aware of this bit history and are working toward producing more non-ICe vehicles. The snicker of calling non-ICE cars "Green" will not stick for long. The reality is one of efficiency: An ICE engine efficiency is around 20% IOW 80% of all the energy is wasted as heat!! 80% OK to back it down let's give it a 5% "argument safety margin" or let's be even more generous a a 10%.. let's agree to give it 30%!! An electric motor routinely deliver 75% ... is less complicated too.. SO yes ICE days are numbered. They are wasteful and polluting. We came tho this level of civilization thanks to them and should be grateful .. the same way we should be to Sailing boats, horse carriages and the Steam Engine ( an ICE-Engine too BTW).

FrantzM said:

The reality is one of efficiency: An ICE engine efficiency is around 20% IOW 80% of all the energy is wasted as heat!! 80% OK to back it down let's give it a 5% "argument safety margin" or let's be even more generous a a 10%.. let's agree to give it 30%!! An electric motor routinely deliver 75% ... is less complicated too..

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20% is a bit low and you also need to account for the power plant being about 33% efficient. So if the electric motor/battery system is 75%, .75 * .33 = 24.75%, or about the same. You also need to factor in when the electric vehicle is being charged too, if it's non-peak hours then it's much more efficient than charging a car during peak demand.

The issues wrt battery and magnet manufacturing, i.e. how energy intensive and is it and how much environmental impact does it have vs an ICE car really determine if a Tesla is doing us any good or not. Considering the $ investment required to build a Tesla vs a Honda Fit, I'd put my money on a Honda Fit being a far "greener" alternative. IMO this is far more valid than how you feel about the technology, how you feel about the subsidies given to new tech. Cars are one of the most emotionally based decision we make, I know as I used to sell cars. It's different from selling almost anything else, people just don't buy cars on the basis of reason for the most part. This thread is further proof of that I think.

And personally, I'm all for gov't regulation and pushing the industry in the right direction. Free market just does what's easiest and cheapest in the short term, this obviously doesn't necessarily work in the long term. But these policies are made by humans and are imperfect. I'm not sure of the wisdom of giving Tesla subsidies, I'm not sure this is based on anything more than feelings and playing politics rather than real life advantages as far as reducing energy consumption.

Steve Williams said:

Finally show me one auto manufacturer that can announce a new affordable electric car in 2016 (Model 3 for $30,000 MSRP) and before the car is even in production gets 400,000 buyers across the world to put down $1000 to reserve a spot for the car which is now only suggested might begin showing up before the end of 2017 but more likely 2018

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I think its gonna be quite the shock when most Model 3s are almost 50k. Tesla recently discontinued the S60 and S75 RWD because of this. They don't want the Model S priced so close. Also, the lofty subsidies will be gone. I can buy a BMW 330i for 38k - but that isn't the cost of admission for 99% of what they sell.

Will be interesting to see the launch of the Model 3 and how Tesla can scale to meet "demand" - they have a lot of reliability and QC issues as I stated before. No other manufacturer has "end of quarter cars" that I'm aware of.

a good read on reliability and ownership costs -

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...est-update-three-review-car-and-driver-page-2

I recently drove two very exciting cars...the first, was the Tesla s 75D which was incredibly fast and incredibly quiet...the second, and this was also a major treat, was the Ferrari 488 Spider ( brand new and with only 660hp on tap). Both cars are in many ways engineering marvels. Price difference between the two is considerable, but for the money, the Tesla was extremely impressive. Old vs new technology, and a totally different driving experience. The Ferrari was very docile around town and of course, ferocious when I put my foot down. Few cars could keep up with the 488, the Tesla was like I imagined it would be. IOW like driving a slot car around town, and with enough punch to show off just about any car around. For those who have Ferrari money, I say go for it, otherwise the Tesla should be on the short list.Apples and Oranges, but both very tasty!

Joe, you have a Tesla car; could you please teach me on the charging system:
1. The cost per kilowatt
3. The time it takes to fully charge
3. The availability across the country
4. The range @ an average highway speed, and in the city
5. Anything else that you might find important for all of us the readers and future buyers

Thank you.
_____

* Bonus: https://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/charging

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

I am reading this thread with great interest by analysing the various aspects of both sides; Mike's side with his Honda dealership, and yours (and Frantz) as Tesla's owner and future owner. It's an important part of our society today. And the conditions of the roads and who pay for maintaining them in top performance shape is also of great interest...very important.
USA versus other countries like Germany, Italy, France, Canada, etc.

A good ride, comfortable, going to work, going on vacation, visiting the family, etc. and @ an affordable price (front cost and mileage and maintenance), and good for the system (ecologic) and the health of everyone around traffics...are all part of a developed society living today in the year 2017 going forward for even a better world tomorrow.

We love what we have and play with...and Frantz mentioned something of prime importance; adaptation with the intelligent changes of better energy...more pure, less polluted, more efficient, less noisy, more smart, less frustrating (high maintenance car's repairs due to fuel's contamination).

Carefully considering all the comments so far in this thread; I am inclined to side with Joe, Frantz, Steve and few others.
Mike has been a car dealer (Honda today) for all his life (43 years); he knows a thing or two about cars and about audio too...so I listened (read) carefully what he has to say.
Because, between his audio friend's dealers they are @ the edge of the information car highway.

Also, the competition, and Tesla is still ranking high: http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/top-electric-cars-2010/
I like Audi, Nissan, BMW, Toyota, Lexus and Kia/Hyundai.

Japan, USA, South Korea, Germany, Italy, France, ...they all make electric cars now.
Many car and audio dealers can retire very comfortable today and driving the new battery powered cars and stereos. Well, audio uses electricity, not gas...so that's good here. :b
Can you imagine people who live without electricity! ...Or without running water! They need a gas (fuel) generator to listen to their music. ...And gas pumps to irrigate the field's corn.

Great thread, great people, great discussions, ...it's a beautiful blue planet we live on; it's worth it. ...Just look around, in your own backyard...USA, Canada, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Philippines, Cuba, China, Russia, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Ireland, Great Britain, Greece, Spain, Africa, Alaska, Argentina, ...

DaveC said:

20% is a bit low and you also need to account for the power plant being about 33% efficient. So if the electric motor/battery system is 75%, .75 * .33 = 24.75%, or about the same. You also need to factor in when the electric vehicle is being charged too, if it's non-peak hours then it's much more efficient than charging a car during peak demand.

The issues wrt battery and magnet manufacturing, i.e. how energy intensive and is it and how much environmental impact does it have vs an ICE car really determine if a Tesla is doing us any good or not. Considering the $ investment required to build a Tesla vs a Honda Fit, I'd put my money on a Honda Fit being a far "greener" alternative. IMO this is far more valid than how you feel about the technology, how you feel about the subsidies given to new tech. Cars are one of the most emotionally based decision we make, I know as I used to sell cars. It's different from selling almost anything else, people just don't buy cars on the basis of reason for the most part. This thread is further proof of that I think.

And personally, I'm all for gov't regulation and pushing the industry in the right direction. Free market just does what's easiest and cheapest in the short term, this obviously doesn't necessarily work in the long term. But these policies are made by humans and are imperfect. I'm not sure of the wisdom of giving Tesla subsidies, I'm not sure this is based on anything more than feelings and playing politics rather than real life advantages as far as reducing energy consumption.

Click to expand...

Your model/analysis is again based on a Petrol ecology. Petrol is a wasteful way to produce energy. There is no way around it. BTW you would be lucky to get 33% out of a coal (or fossil-based) Power plant but I can let you have it. You do have to start somewhere and since our cars are themselves heavy polluter it does make sense to use the available electricity produced by the electrical system to charge them ... Electric Cars simply rely on electricity whatever it source be it wind, coal , sun or atom-based. So this analysis is flawed...
I could grant you that battery ( I don't know much about magnet) and perhaps magnet manufacturing are is at this juncture energy intensive... The notion of equating energy to petrol thus non-green is ingrained but many countries are weaning themselves from Petrol ...An example is Germany and they are looking at 80% from renewable ( non-Petrol) by 2050 which is even in Human terms around the corner: 30 years away. Today France derives 75% of its Electricity from Nuclear 3/4 !!!! from nuclear ... Something about which the USA was for a time a leader but has fallen so far back it is beyond appalling for such a energy-intensive culture ....No! Nuclear comes with its own problems but the energy density of it is IMO very attractive and IMO should be considered in a country such as the USA...
Now the emotion attached to cars is understandable but not a "natural" thing. It has come to be part of the American culture, perhaps as much as buying a horse or a carriage might have been in the past. At the core of it is the freedom it bestows its owner, that of going anywhere anytime.. This can and will change. in many countries mostly European and even in some American cities ( Manhattan) owning a car is seen by many , even well-heeled as superfluous.
Again the subsidies you are talking are not for Tesla. I am not knowledgeable about subsidies but you would be quite surprised to know how much fossil itself is subsidised to the tunes of $52 Billions a year perhaps more, Forbes ( not a magazine you would equate with Liberals ) has recently estimates the real subisdiary to be more than $200 Billions as per this article https://www.forbes.com/sites/ucener...el-subsidy-youve-never-heard-of/#18ea9631652b .
Those more knowledgeable are free to correct and educate me on the matter) ... I believe the amount for renewable is much less ... about 15.4 Billions...

KeithR said:

a good read on reliability and ownership costs -

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...est-update-three-review-car-and-driver-page-2

Click to expand...

That model costs a little bit more than 30K

DaveyF said:

I recently drove two very exciting cars...the first, was the Tesla s 75D which was incredibly fast and incredibly quiet...the second, and this was also a major treat, was the Ferrari 488 Spider ( brand new and with only 660hp on tap). Both cars are in many ways engineering marvels. Price difference between the two is considerable, but for the money, the Tesla was extremely impressive. Old vs new technology, and a totally different driving experience. The Ferrari was very docile around town and of course, ferocious when I put my foot down. Few cars could keep up with the 488, the Tesla was like I imagined it would be. IOW like driving a slot car around town, and with enough punch to show off just about any car around. For those who have Ferrari money, I say go for it, otherwise the Tesla should be on the short list.Apples and Oranges, but both very tasty!

Click to expand...

The Bugatti Chiron has 1,500 Horsepower ($2.7 million). But the tires don't last, and it costs over $20,000 to buy a new set.
The gas mileage is very very bad. Our highways here in North America are not built for Ferraris, Bugattis, etc., they are built for Ford trucks and Chrysler Continentals. :b

Seriously, Hollywood is the perfect place, or Dubai, or the autobahn in Germany, ...or the sinuous roads in the mountains of Italy and China? (small convertible sports cars...electric ones of course, and minibuses).

Tesla was made for North Americans living today for today, and with an open eye on tomorrow's precipice of new technologies about free energy that we can all produce using our natural resources; sun, snow, heat, cold temperature, sun's reflections on the surface of our oceans (using big mirrors to store it in huge underwater fuel-free turbines), rain, wind, volcanoes' eruptions, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, cyclones, landslides, clouds, hot rocks. We just have to learn how to store that free and powerful energy on chips using advanced software.

If we can implant microchips in the back of our brain to make us smarter and make better decisions, and look for other planets from other galaxies to live on healthier and breathe easier with cancer-free, we certainly can drive safer and better. A car should not start when the alcohol's level on the driver's blood is more than 0.008% (or even better; zero tolerance), the car should be smart enough for that, today in the year 2017. And same for people on any type of medication (prescribed and non-prescribed). Driving is a serious hobby in our line of living and working.

Yeah of course, I like to mix sci-fi a little with humoristic future projections; it's the domain of all entrepreneurial poets and scientists with both open eyes and ears and brain towards a better future. The best is yet to come; we are on the right track...almost.

Anyway, it always starts with great ideas, drawing boards, developments, testings, productions, more testings (Tesla sounds like 'testing'), and analyses with facts, solid stats, and sharing like we do here in our advancing discussions. After all we're all living on the same planet working for the positive benefits of everyone around us, right?

We live on the land of great opportunities; Liberté, égalité, fraternité - "A mari usque ad mare" (D'un océan à l'autre) - Beyond Your Dreams, Within Your Reach; The Last Frontier - The Earth and its inhabitants first.

Go Tesla Go!

* In Vancouver we have electric wired buses. Next are the wireless ones without the need of charging, ever.
In San Francisco, they have rail transits...are they electric?

FrantzM said:

Your model/analysis is again based on a Petrol ecology. Petrol is a wasteful way to produce energy. There is no way around it. BTW you would be lucky to get 33% out of a coal (or fossil-based) Power plant but I can let you have it. You do have to start somewhere and since our cars are themselves heavy polluter it does make sense to use the available electricity produced by the electrical system to charge them ... Electric Cars simply rely on electricity whatever it source be it wind, coal , sun or atom-based. So this analysis is flawed...
I could grant you that battery ( I don't know much about magnet) and perhaps magnet manufacturing are is at this juncture energy intensive... The notion of equating energy to petrol thus non-green is ingrained but many countries are weaning themselves from Petrol ...An example is Germany and they are looking at 80% from renewable ( non-Petrol) by 2050 which is even in Human terms around the corner: 30 years away. Today France derives 75% of its Electricity from Nuclear 3/4 !!!! from nuclear ... Something about which the USA was for a time a leader but has fallen so far back it is beyond appalling for such a energy-intensive culture ....No! Nuclear comes with its own problems but the energy density of it is IMO very attractive and IMO should be considered in a country such as the USA...
Now the emotion attached to cars is understandable but not a "natural" thing. It has come to be part of the American culture, perhaps as much as buying a horse or a carriage might have been in the past. At the core of it is the freedom it bestows its owner, that of going anywhere anytime.. This can and will change. in many countries mostly European and even in some American cities ( Manhattan) owning a car is seen by many , even well-heeled as superfluous.
Again the subsidies you are talking are not for Tesla. I am not knowledgeable about subsidies but you would be quite surprised to know how much fossil itself is subsidised to the tunes of $52 Billions a year perhaps more, Forbes ( not a magazine you would equate with Liberals ) has recently estimates the real subisdiary to be more than $200 Billions as per this article https://www.forbes.com/sites/ucener...el-subsidy-youve-never-heard-of/#18ea9631652b .
Those more knowledgeable are free to correct and educate me on the matter) ... I believe the amount for renewable is much less ... about 15.4 Billions...

Click to expand...

+1

Bob, I don't know about the per kilowatt cost. I can say that we installed a 240 line in our garage and we get 30 miles for each hour of charging. Our 75 D fully charged has a range of 260 or so miles. For our regular use we plug it in when it gets to about 180. On trips we use Tesla super chargers. It fully charges the car in 20 to 25 minutes. There are such chargers all over the country. Tesla is to triple the number of chargers in the next year. Have only used the car for long trips to NYC and Long Island. There are several chargers on LI and stations on either side of the New Jersey Turnpike so that is not an issue. Take a bathroom break, stretch your legs and get a bite to eat and off you go, fully charged. Not an issue at all. As an aside, you can't pump your own gas in New Jersey so you have at times to wait in long lines to get gas at the Turnpike rest stops. The car monitors the power and will plan a route to the nearest charger for you. Works very well. As for the Honda Fit, I would bet that anyone who tests drives one and a Model 3, will choose the 3. Totally different experiences. I hope to have a 3 early next year and trade in the E350. Oh and as for the batteries, Tesla is building a huge facility in Sparks Nevada which will be the largest building by volume in the world. The whole roof is covered with solar panels and the building will be operated via solar and battery storage. They will name more lithium batteries there by a factor of 2 then the rest of the world.