New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

KeithR · Jul 28, 2017

Tesla's Model 3 will make or break the company. The Model S isn't a big factor long-term and sales have peaked there.

Tesla has been doing debt offerings and equity secondaries for quite some time to raise money for capital expenditures. There is plenty more to come

Joe Whip · Jul 28, 2017

DaveC said:
I'm not convinced an electric car that costs 6-figures is doing the environment any favors either. In terms of EROEI, or Energy Return On Energy Invested + environmental impacts of the materials used to build the car's motors, magnets and batteries, it's difficult to claim any advantage vs ICEs. If you compare a Tesla to a basic small car that gets 30+ mpg I'd be willing to bet the impacts of the small car are actually far less.

Also, as mentioned in the link below, it's likely a large majority of pollution from ICEs comes from a very small percentage of cars that with damaged or improperly tuned motors. Modern ICEs produce practically zero emissions besides CO2.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/12794/h...npriced-consequences-of-energy-production-and

CO2 is the problem. If all vehicles were zero emission, wouldn't that be a good thing? Unless of course you were in the fossil fuel industry? We hope to be able to add solar panels in two years and get off the grid almost entirely.

DaveC · Jul 28, 2017

Joe Whip said:
CO2 is the problem. If all vehicles were zero emission, wouldn't that be a good thing? Unless of course you were in the fossil fuel industry? We hope to be able to add solar panels in two years and get off the grid almost entirely.

I don't disagree CO2 is a problem, however you need to consider how much energy was used to manufacture a Tesla and the fact that energy wasn't free and it probably lead to the release of a lot of CO2 before the Tesla even gets sold. After it's sold you get to recharge it using electrical power plants that are not any more efficient vs an ICE and this is probably based on fossil fuels. Then if you take into account the energy required to recycle or safely dispose of it's batteries and other parts plus the huge environmental costs of producing the materials to manufacture batteries and magnets in the first place I think it's likely the Tesla is a net loss for the environment vs an average car using an ICE.

IMO, Teslas and Priuses are not nearly as ecologically friendly as a typical small car. If you actually care that much about the environment and don't just want to look like it, you'd be driving something like a Honda Fit.

KeithR · Jul 28, 2017

DaveC said:
I don't disagree CO2 is a problem, however you need to consider how much energy was used to manufacture a Tesla and the fact that energy wasn't free and it probably lead to the release of a lot of CO2 before the Tesla even gets sold. After it's sold you get to recharge it using electrical power plants that are not any more efficient vs an ICE and this is probably based on fossil fuels. Then if you take into account the energy required to recycle or safely dispose of it's batteries and other parts plus the huge environmental costs of producing the materials to manufacture batteries and magnets in the first place I think it's likely the Tesla is a net loss for the environment vs an average car using an ICE.

IMO, Teslas and Priuses are not nearly as ecologically friendly as a typical small car. If you actually care that much about the environment and don't just want to look like it, you'd be driving something like a Honda Fit.

well, you can make the argument that charging based on nat gas power (2/3 of US power produced) is still better than gasoline.

wisnon · Jul 28, 2017

DAVE, try breathing on Oxford Street in London and you will understand the beauty of zero emissions vehicles.

Tesla is a proof of concept for electric cars. They may not even be the ones to inherit the earth.

Mike, Honda had a nice looking electric concept car at the Geneva auto show 3 years ago. Said they only planned to sell it in Calif. I will post a picture in a few days when I get back from Barcelona.

Mike Lavigne · Jul 28, 2017

wisnon said:
Try breathing on Oxford Street in London and you will understand the beauty of zero emissions vehicles.

Tesla is a proof of concept for electric cars. They may not even be the ones to inherit the earth.

Mike, Honda had a nice looking electric concept car at the Geneva auto show 3 years ago. Said they only planned to sell it in Calif. I will post a picture in a few days when I get back from Barcelona.

Europe's love affair with diesel fuel is very bad. it's the legacy inventory of dirty cars that is the issue, and the EU's less stringent emission laws don't help with current models. USA auto emissions are considerably more stringent, and the whole blurred lines of business and government in the EU softens emission enforcement. lots of hypocrisy happening there.

the VW fraud event would never happen where VW is partly owned by the local government.

the new all electric Honda Clarity, and the fuel cell Honda Clarity, are both out in California, and the Electric will soon be in other markets. as hydrogen fuel cell filling stations expand into other markets distribution of the fuel cell Clarity will expand.

the all electric Fit is also out in California and Oregon.

no confusion in the USA as to who is watching who.

JackD201 · Jul 28, 2017

DaveC said:
I don't disagree CO2 is a problem, however you need to consider how much energy was used to manufacture a Tesla and the fact that energy wasn't free and it probably lead to the release of a lot of CO2 before the Tesla even gets sold. After it's sold you get to recharge it using electrical power plants that are not any more efficient vs an ICE and this is probably based on fossil fuels. Then if you take into account the energy required to recycle or safely dispose of it's batteries and other parts plus the huge environmental costs of producing the materials to manufacture batteries and magnets in the first place I think it's likely the Tesla is a net loss for the environment vs an average car using an ICE.

IMO, Teslas and Priuses are not nearly as ecologically friendly as a typical small car. If you actually care that much about the environment and don't just want to look like it, you'd be driving something like a Honda Fit.

Ironically Electricity generation is THE big elephant in the room when it comes to emissions followed by transport then by industry half of which is indirect emissions from....electricity generation. Somebody better find a way to make safe nuke plants with much less waste. Still, I think eCars are marginally ahead since the coal burning plants burn that coal whether you are charging your car or not. I see a lot of aluminum so my bet is that it is recycled aluminum which uses less....electricity. Batteries need special dumpsites to protect ground water but that is another story. Net-net I still think eCars are a step in the right direction but as stated clean electricity generation at comparable cost to fossil fuel is the ultimate answer.

Mike Lavigne · Jul 28, 2017

and the true 1200 pound gorilla in the room is the likely cost of a 54mpg CAFE standard looming in 10-15 years. it will likely drive up the average transaction cost of a new car in the USA from it's current low $30k range to over $50k converted to todays dollars.

this will effectively cut the market in half. and the economic fall out from that will dwarf any other issue we are talking about.

we can build cars like that, but they are expensive to build and the tech does not scale to lower costs. so the political pressure will be enormous on both sides.

this issue will take center stage soon.

remember; all these subsidies can work when we are talking about 100,000-250,000 cars a year; but when it's 6-8-10 million then that is where the Federal Budget gets busted, spending more on subsidies than just paying workers not to work.

you cannot legislate technology advances; they happen when they happen.

DaveC · Jul 28, 2017

wisnon said:
DAVE, try breathing on Oxford Street in London and you will understand the beauty of zero emissions vehicles.

As Mike said that has more to do with tolerance for dirty diesel motors. Modern gas motors, and non-cheating diesel motors, if they actually exist, contribute negligible amounts to city smog issues.

DaveC · Jul 28, 2017

JackD201 said:
Ironically Electricity generation is THE big elephant in the room when it comes to emissions followed by transport then by industry half of which is indirect emissions from....electricity generation. Somebody better find a way to make safe nuke plants with much less waste. Still, I think eCars are marginally ahead since the coal burning plants burn that coal whether you are charging your car or not. I see a lot of aluminum so my bet is that it is recycled aluminum which uses less....electricity. Batteries need special dumpsites to protect ground water but that is another story. Net-net I still think eCars are a step in the right direction but as stated clean electricity generation at comparable cost to fossil fuel is the ultimate answer.

Agreed, but still skeptical that eCars are a net win for anyone.

Nuke plants have very low EROIE because they cost so much to build and decommission. It's also fair to say the risks are completely unacceptable after Chernobyl and Fukushima. We should wait for cold fusion or some other tech...

Aluminum costs a good bit more than steel in cost and energy useage to refine and manufacture. It saves gas during it's lifespan though, again a trade off that isn't clear whether it's a net win.

Who would've known energy for transportation was such a complex issue?

DaveC · Jul 28, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
and the true 1200 pound gorilla in the room is the likely cost of a 54mpg CAFE standard looming in 10-15 years. it will likely drive up the average transaction cost of a new car in the USA from it's current low $30k range to over $50k converted to todays dollars.

this will effectively cut the market in half. and the economic fall out from that will dwarf any other issue we are talking about.

we can build cars like that, but they are expensive to build and the tech does not scale to lower costs. so the political pressure will be enormous on both sides.

this issue will take center stage soon.

remember; all these subsidies can work when we are talking about 100,000 cars a year; but when it's 6-8-10 million then that is where the Federal Budget gets busted, spending more on subsidies than just paying workers not to work.

Wait, didn't Trumpie nix that?

Anyways, I'm all for spending more money to be more efficient if it actually makes sense. IMO the mileage targets were/are a bit too aggressive though.

Mike Lavigne · Jul 28, 2017

DaveC said:
Wait, didn't Trumpie nix that?

Anyways, I'm all for spending more money to be more efficient if it actually makes sense. IMO the mileage targets were/are a bit too aggressive though.

yes; for 3 more years Trump did stop it. but whoever is in office can change it back. it is possible that the Dem's see that slowing down the auto sector (20%+ of the economy) is a bad move. but their left side has been dominant. we will see how that looks at the next election (hopefully I'm not violating the rules against politics).

NorthStar · Jul 28, 2017

Yesterday I saw a nice blue looking hybrid car that a friend just bought; it is 3-years old, has low mileage, supposed to do 80mpg, and he paid only *$25,000
* Canadian loonies.

But he didn't stop, so I'm not sure the model and brand, I was told Toyota but I'm not too sure; I'll ask next time.

The Tesla Model S is rated #3 in the second link below, and #1 for large cars in the first link:

• https://www.thrillist.com/cars/nation/the-most-environmentally-fuel-efficient-new-cars-in-2016-2017
• http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/86338/best-low-emissions-green-cars-2017
• http://www.caranddriver.com/best-hybrid-electric-cars
_____

It's interesting to be living today in the age of prehistoric fossil fuel age that is going the way of the dodo.
We have electricity (battery powered), solar panels, hydrogen, nuclear energy. ...Cool efficient global cooling to counteract too much heat (Tesla's main issue with its battery, and Samsung in one of its android phones). It would be good if North Korea started to build the best environment friendly cars on the planet, get on track with world's benefits for its people and the entire regional population. They can do it with a little help from friends and if they put their heart into it. Anyway, just an idea in the era we live in; perhaps they can manufacture the future Tesla cars?

wisnon · Jul 28, 2017

I agree with some if what you say Mike...but too blanket. In Switzerland the minimum petrol sold is 95 RON. The cost of a car permit for a year follows the emission pattern and hybrids/electrics cost by far the least.

Diesel in Switzerland costs MORE and is hard to justify even with better fuel economy. Diesel got a foothold when 30 years ago it was cleaner than petrol. That chemical equation flipped long ago but policies live long beyond useful lives.

Fuel cell is likely the real future.

wisnon · Jul 28, 2017

The real 2 ton gorilla is who will pay for road infrastructure in Europe if electrics take over. In Switz...fuel cost is 70% tax and hybrids/ electrics dobt contribute thete and rge pay way less annual car tax.

In the future, car tax will have to get explosively higher as the average fuel tax per passenger will be lìke $2500. Annual car tax is like $400 for ICE cars and like $150 for hybrids.

wisnon · Jul 28, 2017

Lots of changes will have to occur. Not so simple.

Barry2013 · Jul 28, 2017

There is a report in The Times today that UK insurance companies are charging electric car drivers around one third more than for petrol/diesel cars so even a small electric car costs more to insure thana luxury normally aspirated car.
Down to so few garages able to undertake repairs to electrics and the potential costs of repairs.

FrantzM · Jul 28, 2017

Barry2013 said:
There is a report in The Times today that UK insurance companies are charging electric car drivers around one third more than for petrol/diesel cars so even a small electric car costs more to insure than a luxury normally aspirated car.
Down to so few garages able to undertake repairs to electrics and the potential costs of repairs.

We have a civilization whose infrastructure was based on Petrol as the main source of Energy. It has to change and it is changing. Ineluctably. The reasons are not moral but practical. Petrol-based energy is not sustainable. it never was.
Change is disruptive. Even our Electrical Grids which is what electric cars use, after all, don't cope well with renewable energy generators ( Wind, Solar, etc) . Electric Grids were built on Petrol with Generators working all the time at full power. Renewable work in strange ways .. For example clouds can create serious disturbances in energy production thus distribution
The move to non-petrol is however inevitable. Countries who lag will be surpassed; as simple as that.
Electric cars are the future whether they are battery or fuel cell based is an aside. ICE car days are numbered. Tesla may be the flag-bearer for electric cars but traditional Car manufacturers are not standing by idly waiting to fold and die. They are actively pursuing electric cars.
Frankly the performances of Electric cars are staggering. I understand that doing drag race with a Tesla is likely to burn its battery. Same with any ICE cars. The laughable limitation on the Bugatti being prime examples.. yes it can do 340 Km/h but for only 12 minutes or so and you may need to replace at a cost of $70,000 (Yes you read it right) its $20,000 tires after such a run... Enough to buy a Tesla

At least one could fathom to drive the Tesla coast to coast ..

NorthStar · Jul 28, 2017

Tesla's first Model 3 will be delivered Friday (tonight) — here's what you need to know

DaveC · Jul 28, 2017

Depending on electric cars to save the world with current tech is like a lifelong smoker giving up cigs for heroin. At first it seems much better, lungs recover, heroin is great fun, but then there's a price to pay... It's not nearly as bad as nuclear energy but eCars are a stopgap solution that will be discarded when better tech comes along as all it's doing now is shifting problems around.

New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

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