New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

wisnon · Aug 1, 2017

ddk said:
Other cars aren't making any claims to saving the planet nor are the taxpayer subsidized or given special status on the roads with HOV lane usage. If it's really good then it should sell by itself, it's not as if there's a shortage of expensive cars in the marketplace that are competing very well even when we're getting gouged by all kinds of us taxes to make them more expensive. This is what I resent not the tech.

david

David, why do you resent companies using marketing to their advantage or taking advantage of existing regulations??

As I said, the pendulum will shift. When the petrol taxes no longer roll in like they used to, the money will have to be found elsewhere and road taxes will go UP...especially for electrics that are off the grid.

KeithR · Aug 1, 2017

Can we shut down this thread since its become political and not about cars?

DaveC · Aug 1, 2017

christoph said:
There (bolded part) you have it. That is more than enough argument already

Yup, and besides that EROEI is poor, about 5:1, and that's not considering the costs of very long term clean up issues or disasters like Fukushima that will take decades to clean up and has possibly polluted the entire planet. It takes a massive amount of energy to both construct and decommission a nuclear power plant.

The amount of waste heat produced by nuclear is also an issue as they are located on bodies of fresh water to use for cooling and they raise the temperature of the water. The temperature raise can be a significant issue depending on where the plant is, and if you calculate the temp rise in bodies of water if the US was to go fully nuclear it would often be unacceptable.

With tech like wind turbines approaching a 20:1 EROEI when I was in the business, and the relative ease of decommissioning and recycling wind turbines, nuclear just doesn't make sense except for the fact that we do need a stable base for the power grid that renewables can't yet provide because of the lack of energy storage technology. For the reasons above fossil fuels are the best choice for this role right now. I know it sucks but that's where we're at in the real world. With current tech it should be possible for renewables to provide around half our electricity or so, but it depends on the geographic area. N Europe gets about 1/3rd of it's power from renewables right now but there are many areas that are ideal for wind turbines. The constant winds on the west coast of Denmark are remarkable, it seems like they never stop...

And as far as gas powered cars, no I didn't do a comparable analysis because 1. this is about electric cars. 2. I can't spend all my time here. But I do agree the extraction of oil has had consequences but it's nothing like rare earth element extraction and EROEI is close to 100:1 so we spend about 1 unit of energy extracting oil for every 100 that is contained in the oil. This varies a bit of course.

JackD201 · Aug 1, 2017

After 23 pages I'm amused that nobody has mentioned the one thing the Tesla has that none of the ICE cars in its class can ever have. TWO trunks!

Joe Whip · Aug 1, 2017

A trunk and a frunk to be more precise.

ddk · Aug 1, 2017

wisnon said:
David, why do you resent companies using marketing to their advantage or taking advantage of existing regulations??

As I said, the pendulum will shift. When the petrol taxes no longer roll in like they used to, the money will have to be found elsewhere and road taxes will go UP...especially for electrics that are off the grid.

I have no objections to marketing and I'm personally agnostic about the product it's the carbon game and gamers which I have a problem with costing the rest of us money and gives the gamer, not the better company an unfair advantage. Centrally controlled and government regulated autonomous cars is a very scary thought and it's what the carbon game is providing for.

david

twitch · Aug 1, 2017

KeithR said:
Can we shut down this thread since its become political and not about cars?

go home your mother's calling ........

JackD201 · Aug 1, 2017

Joe Whip said:
A trunk and a frunk to be more precise.

So Mel Brooks. A Frunk and Brunk would be the more logical then!

Joe Whip · Aug 1, 2017

No the actual name given by Tesla to the front trunk is frunk. Not trying to be funny at all,

NorthStar · Aug 1, 2017

One big advantage not mentioned on the Tesla is noise reduction; it must be awesome in listening to classical music when driving a Tesla with autopilot.
It's like a mini concert hall on wheels. Teslas are for music lovers.
_____

? Question: Can the wheels turning from a Tesla S be enough to charge a secondary battery for an extra 200 miles distance?
...The four wheels acting like four powered generating mini turbines. Am I overviewing this with an unrealistic vision?
There must be many mini-Musk (minions) around?

Anyway, we won't be here but someone else will, when teletransportation won't be science fiction anymore.
Just the autopilot and GPS system and smart apps and cameras and voice commands on the Tesla are getting us closer.

wisnon · Aug 1, 2017

KeithR said:
Can we shut down this thread since its become political and not about cars?

I would say its more philosophical than political.

wisnon · Aug 1, 2017

ddk said:
I have no objections to marketing and I'm personally agnostic about the product it's the carbon game and gamers which I have a problem with costing the rest of us money and gives the gamer, not the better company an unfair advantage. Centrally controlled and government regulated autonomous cars is a very scary thought and it's what the carbon game is providing for.

david

I agree there is gaming going on...on BOTH sides. Oilers have been gaming for decades and new snake oilers are in town. However the new Gamers have tech that seems to have more future upside.

wisnon · Aug 1, 2017

DaveC said:
Yup, and besides that EROEI is poor, about 5:1, and that's not considering the costs of very long term clean up issues or disasters like Fukushima that will take decades to clean up and has possibly polluted the entire planet. It takes a massive amount of energy to both construct and decommission a nuclear power plant.

The amount of waste heat produced by nuclear is also an issue as they are located on bodies of fresh water to use for cooling and they raise the temperature of the water. The temperature raise can be a significant issue depending on where the plant is, and if you calculate the temp rise in bodies of water if the US was to go fully nuclear it would often be unacceptable.

With tech like wind turbines approaching a 20:1 EROEI when I was in the business, and the relative ease of decommissioning and recycling wind turbines, nuclear just doesn't make sense except for the fact that we do need a stable base for the power grid that renewables can't yet provide because of the lack of energy storage technology. For the reasons above fossil fuels are the best choice for this role right now. I know it sucks but that's where we're at in the real world. With current tech it should be possible for renewables to provide around half our electricity or so, but it depends on the geographic area. N Europe gets about 1/3rd of it's power from renewables right now but there are many areas that are ideal for wind turbines. The constant winds on the west coast of Denmark are remarkable, it seems like they never stop...

And as far as gas powered cars, no I didn't do a comparable analysis because 1. this is about electric cars. 2. I can't spend all my time here. But I do agree the extraction of oil has had consequences but it's nothing like rare earth element extraction and EROEI is close to 100:1 so we spend about 1 unit of energy extracting oil for every 100 that is contained in the oil. This varies a bit of course.

Thanks for the reply. I find it difficult to swallow the low EROEI you give for nuclear , given the amount of energy release from just 1 kg of the fissinable material, but I know salaries are very high for the workers and Capex is enormous too.

Don Hills · Aug 1, 2017

NorthStar said:
One big advantage not mentioned on the Tesla is noise reduction; it must be awesome in listening to classical music when driving a Tesla with autopilot.
It's like a mini concert hall on wheels. Teslas are for music lovers.

Most of the noise in the typical up-market car is tyre and wind noise.
_____

NorthStar said:
... Can the wheels turning from a Tesla S be enough to charge a secondary battery for an extra 200 miles distance?
...

No. As soon as you start taking power from the wheels, they slow down. You then have to apply more power to the motors to keep the wheels turning. Think about it - taking power from the wheels to turn the wheels is a classic definition of perpetual motion.

NorthStar · Aug 1, 2017

Don Hills said:
Most of the noise in the typical up-market car is tyre and wind noise.

_____

Then the interior design and acoustics and noise reduction system and panels absorbing and solidity of the floor, doors, windows, dashboard, ...are the main contributing factors to eliminate noise from the tires with the road, the wind caressing the car's exterior and the noise from the engine (fuel cars) or motors (battery powered).

No. As soon as you start taking power from the wheels, they slow down. You then have to apply more power to the motors to keep the wheels turning. Think about it - taking power from the wheels to turn the wheels is a classic definition of perpetual motion.

Perpetual motion, ok.

* If you check attentively, in the third video above you'll see Albert Einstein present in the room.
_____

Extra:

_____

If you start dreaming about Tesla while sleeping tight @ night don't blame me, blame Elon Musk and the people buying.

And if you think Tesla cars are not attractive enough for the future, think again. Personally I can't thank Steve enough to have started this thread (almost a year ago), and his son who just bought one, and Joe and all the others who are as smart with espousing technologies that are beneficial for the humanity and the planet we live on. I would listen to Opera, chamber classical music, solo piano, solo cello ... while auto-piloting a Tesla, and dream of the future living today happy.

And thanks Don for 'perpetual motion'.

NorthStar · Sep 7, 2017

Good news: https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/05/10492-tesla-model-s-maintenance-charging-costs-300000-miles/

Bruce B · Sep 7, 2017

Joe Whip said:
A trunk and a frunk to be more precise.

My Spyder has a trunk and frunk... but as it has been brought up, like everything else, there are compromises in every mode of transportation. No one car/motorcycle can do everything or fit everyone perfectly. Luckily for motorcycles, they are cheap and you can have more in your garage to fit your needs. As tempting as getting an EV in the garage, there are just too many compromises that we have to make at this time. Besides.... I sometimes don't like to blend in with the crowd!

Joe Whip · Sep 7, 2017

For our purposes and uses of the car, there are no compromises. YMMV. Hopefully, will be trading our E350 in for an X or 3 next year.

rockitman · Sep 7, 2017

I live the creed...he who burns the most hydrocarbon wins... Sorry libs

Joe Whip · Sep 7, 2017

I can only imagine your creed supporting the horse and buggy over the first car at the turn of the century. BTW, I know some conservatives that love their Teslas

New Tesla Model S Now the Quickest Production Car in the World

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