AQ Niagara vs Shunyata vs EquiTech vs. SilverO vs. Torus vs. ?? What are differences?

caesar

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I am wondering if anyone has compared any of these. Earlier this year, Fremer dumped his Shunyata triton and typhon in favor of Audioquest Nirvana 7000 product. He thought that AQ had more musical detail resolution, while Shunyata had better bass, but he made the tradeoff. (I believe he still kept the Shunyata power cords.)

High Water sound, one of the guys that CONSISTENTLY get great sound at shows always use the Silver Circle product. My understanding is that Silver Circle products have an isolation transformer to clean up the electricity. How is that different than the Equi+tech and Torus products?

And how are Equi_tech and Torus different from each other?

Are there any other Excellent solutions missing from this list? If so, why are they excellent? I am sure there are, but I am only familiar of these better marketed and more recognized brands.

Do products that have an isolation transformer "clean up" the electricity in a different way than "passive" products like Shunyata?

Also, does it make sense to daisy chain the isolation transformer products with the "passive" products?
 

witchdoctor

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Apr 23, 2016
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Hi Caesar, like all equipment a choice of a power conditioner is synergistic with your power and your gear. As for the competitive advantages of each product take it as part engineering, part marketing hype. You need to start auditioning gear from places that give you a 30-60 day audition period. I think power makes a HUGE difference and I would recommend start by changing the wall socket before a conditioner. I like Mapleshades socket but MIT and Furman offer them too. Should be less than $100-$150. Check out www.audioadvisor.com, www,mapleshaderecords.com, and thecableco.com.
 

Mike Lavigne

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a distinction needs to made clearly between 'stand-alone' plug in (power conditioning) boxes and contractor installed hard wired isolation transformers/wall panels......even between same brand products. for instance, in the case of Equi=tech, there are stand alone boxes ( 1R and 1.5R) which offer balanced power conditioning but only 1kva or 1.5kva of output power. maybe ok for source gear, but likely lacking headroom sufficient for amplifiers in many systems. you cannot compare that to a hard wired 10Kva isolation transformer. further; you likely need to separate stand alone power products that have isolation transformers from those that just filter but don't limit current.....although maybe the distinction between those 2 things is not clear cut......I don't know.

hard wired isolation transformers have the 'potential' for considerable amperage as they are fed by three phase 240v and not limited by 120v source circuits......along with a robust construction designed for commercial installations.

in my particular case, I use the Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system. I also added the OFC (oxygen free copper) and added EMI/RMF filtering on three of my output circuits (for my digital source and my 2 bass tower amplifiers). I've also removed the GFI's on each of the 10 output circuits and replaced them with a direct hard wire.....the GFI's are noisy buggars.

I have completely separate "dirty power' outlets next to my 'isolated grid outlets' in my listening room which makes very easy A/B comparisons to the untreated power grid anytime I want. suffice it to say it isn't even close.
 
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witchdoctor

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Mike, are you pretty handy around circuits and such or did you have it installed by someone else? What type of budget did you need? thanks
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, are you pretty handy around circuits and such or did you have it installed by someone else? What type of budget did you need? thanks

no; I know nothing about things electrical and even had my dealer install Furutech NCF outlets and plugs. over the years I just listen and form an opinion, particularly in my own system. I've had plenty of stand alone conditioners (both filter non current limiting and isolation transformer types) and such in my system over the years, and listened to quite a few systems with robust hard wired isolation transformers......to know I prefer the contractor installed hard wired type and among those the large Equi=tech panels have been the best overall systems I've heard. I do think that it's possible for some stand alone filtering power conditioners can still add to performance with a hard wired isolation transformer........my mind is open to that. but filtering is a different thing than what a big boy isolation transformer does.

I can't argue electrical theory.........but have opinions on what I hear.

as far as budget; surprisingly in the context of more involved and serious high end systems, doing a contractor installed, whole system, hard wired isolation transformer/wall panel is a modest investment assuming you don't need major home modification along with it to accommodate it. if you have the spot for it and are not needing to tear the walls apart for running the circuits then it's a $10k-$20k investment in the whole shebang. lots of people have more than that tied up in stand alone power conditioners or have power cords far exceeding that level of investment. I've seen the whole cost of one of these hard wired systems be paid for by selling stand alone boxes.

personally I paid $12k for my Equi=tech plus $2500 for the installation including some minor carpentry. my room had been originally spec'd for the Equi=tech when it was designed in 2004 by the designer (who had designed many professional studios and spec'd the Equi=tech for them), and originally had used a high quality conventional panel in it's spot with all the circuits already run there, as well as a ground rod installed. my budget was shot at that time so I did not get it installed until 2011. that was a significant performance upgrade.

so cost of the actual isolation transformer is not a major issue.....but it's not trivial.

the biggest thing holding many back is maybe they are in a condo or apartment where some of those choices cannot be made......or they are not willing to run new circuits to the spot where then can install it. or maybe that you might move and lose the sunk cost. stand alone boxes are mobile.
 
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witchdoctor

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Apr 23, 2016
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You nailed it, I am in a condo. Sounds like you are a happy camper, wish I had that option. I agree that would be the best route to go.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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a distinction needs to made clearly between 'stand-alone' plug in (power conditioning) boxes and contractor installed hard wired isolation transformers/wall panels......even between same brand products. for instance, in the case of Equi=tech, there are stand alone boxes ( 1R and 1.5R) which offer balanced power conditioning but only 1kva or 1.5kva of output power. maybe ok for source gear, but likely lacking headroom sufficient for amplifiers in many systems. you cannot compare that to a hard wired 10Kva isolation transformer. further; you likely need to separate stand alone power products that have isolation transformers from those that just filter but don't limit current.....although maybe the distinction between those 2 things is not clear cut......I don't know.

hard wired isolation transformers have the 'potential' for considerable amperage as they are fed by three phase 240v and not limited by 120v source circuits......along with a robust construction designed for commercial installations.

in my particular case, I use the Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system. I also added the OFC (oxygen free copper) and added EMI/RMF filtering on three of my output circuits (for my digital source and my 2 bass tower amplifiers). I've also removed the GFI's on each of the 10 output circuits and replaced them with a direct hard wire.....the GFI's are noisy buggars.

I have completely separate "dirty power' outlets next to my 'isolated grid outlets' in my listening room which makes very easy A/B comparisons to the untreated power grid anytime I want. suffice it to say it isn't even close.

Mike, thank you. Seems like the Silver circle product is the compromise approach, as it is a power conditioner that contains a 5 KVA isolation transformer. As I mentioned above, High Water Sound very successfully uses it at shows - not an easy feat!

Also, are you using any after-market power cords, or does your isolation transformer eliminate the need for them?
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Hi Caesar, like all equipment a choice of a power conditioner is synergistic with your power and your gear. As for the competitive advantages of each product take it as part engineering, part marketing hype. You need to start auditioning gear from places that give you a 30-60 day audition period. I think power makes a HUGE difference and I would recommend start by changing the wall socket before a conditioner. I like Mapleshades socket but MIT and Furman offer them too. Should be less than $100-$150. Check out www.audioadvisor.com, www,mapleshaderecords.com, and thecableco.com.

Thanks. What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I think I read something by Melifluous Myles Astor that after he installed his power conditioner, the differences between cables became moot. Power seems to be king.
 

witchdoctor

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Apr 23, 2016
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Thanks. What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I think I read something by Melifluous Myles Astor that after he installed his power conditioner, the differences between cables became moot. Power seems to be king.

Agreed, start with the wall socket or source if possible, then the PLC, then the cords.
 

Ron Resnick

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Equi-Tech and Torus make similar, directly-competing products, both in-wall and floor or rack-mounted.

People who have Equi-Techs love them. I came close recently to ordering a Torus in-wall unit only because Torus as a company seems more active these days.

In concept I think the balanced power and isolation transformer makes all the technical sense in the world. But, from reports of WBF members, I became concerned about my in-wall installation resulting in too long a wire run from the isolation transformer to my high-current amplifiers. As a result I have decided to install new outlets with good wire and a low-resistance ground (i.e., the whole standard electrical upgrade plan minus the balanced power/isolation transformer).

I will very seriously consider a smaller, floor-mounted balanced power/isolation transformer someday for my analog front-end and phono pre-amp.

Is there any dealer from whom you can borrow a rack-size Equi-Tech or Torus or Furman balanced power/isolation transformer unit to audition in your own system?
 

microstrip

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Equi-Tech and Torus make similar, directly-competing products, both in-wall and floor or rack-mounted. (...)

Ron,

Equi-Tech and Torus are competing isolation transformers, but very dissimilar products. And IMHO making comparisons with rack-size units and extrapolating can be highly misleading.

Again IMHO the choice will depend on the quality of your mains and the complete audio system.
 

Ron Resnick

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I know the Equi-Tech is balanced at the output and the Torus is balanced at the input. Otherwise I think they are very similar. In what material ways are they not similar?

I was not thinking that caesar would extrapolate. Since he lives in an apartment the in-wall probably is out of the question. I was thinking he could try a rack mount and see what he hears.
 

microstrip

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I know the Equi-Tech is balanced at the output and the Torus is balanced at the input. Otherwise I think they are very similar. In what material ways are they not similar?

I was not thinking that caesar would extrapolate. Since he lives in an apartment the in-wall probably is out of the question. I was thinking he could try a rack mount and see what he hears.

The Torus is bandwidth limited to eliminate noise - this makes a lot of difference.

Personally I would never use an isolation transformer unless it is very oversized - the case of typical in-wall installations .
 

caesar

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I know the Equi-Tech is balanced at the output and the Torus is balanced at the input. Otherwise I think they are very similar. In what material ways are they not similar?

I was not thinking that caesar would extrapolate. Since he lives in an apartment the in-wall probably is out of the question. I was thinking he could try a rack mount and see what he hears.

I may be doing some major construction in the next few years, but not in the very near term. So dedicated isolation transformers are not in the game plan in the near term. Yet I am curious about what the top Torus and Equi-Tech products do better or differently vs. "regular" power conditioners.
 

caesar

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The Torus is bandwidth limited to eliminate noise - this makes a lot of difference.

Personally I would never use an isolation transformer unless it is very oversized - the case of typical in-wall installations .

Hi Microstrip,

A couple of questions about your post:

- why no isolation transformers? what is the downside (of the smaller ones)?
- what is considered large vs. small vs. oversized? Is 5 KVA large or small?

Interestingly, I just learned that the Bricasti digital guys always use the Silver Circle product, which contains a 5 KVA isolation transformer, at shows, in addition to High End Water Sound, and both to great results. Interestingly, some guys claim it's a Shunyata killer - does everything better, except the bass rumble. (But if one's system already got great bass from the speaker/ amp combo, it's a non-issue.)
 

microstrip

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Hi Microstrip,

A couple of questions about your post:

- why no isolation transformers? what is the downside (of the smaller ones)?
- what is considered large vs. small vs. oversized? Is 5 KVA large or small?

Interestingly, I just learned that the Bricasti digital guys always use the Silver Circle product, which contains a 5 KVA isolation transformer, at shows, in addition to High End Water Sound, and both to great results. Interestingly, some guys claim it's a Shunyata killer - does everything better, except the bass rumble. (But if one's system already got great bass from the speaker/ amp combo, it's a non-issue.)

Small transformers have poor regulation and can even saturate at peak power transients. IMHO you can not learn anything form the atypical conditions in a show - hundreds of rooms sharing a power supply that is not dimensioned for the systems, usually fitted with dubious over-current equipment to avoid excessive load. IMHO someone who claims that something is a killer of other power equipment independently of system and location should look for a place in a newspaper in the horoscope sections ... ;)

Surely it is possible to design a proper isolation transformer that overcomes the problems I referred. Size of power depends a lot on the equipment - remember that a 86 dB/W speaker needs 25 times more power than a 100dB/W one!
Anyway typical values of regulation are around 3% for 1kVA , 1.5% for 4 kVA and 1% at 7.5 kVA - measured with resistive loads. Most electrical engineers will consider audiophile requirements a ridiculous overkill, but considering the Soundlabs I would never be happy with less than 7 kVA for my system (~30A at 230V).
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Small transformers have poor regulation and can even saturate at peak power transients. IMHO you can not learn anything form the atypical conditions in a show - hundreds of rooms sharing a power supply that is not dimensioned for the systems, usually fitted with dubious over-current equipment to avoid excessive load. IMHO someone who claims that something is a killer of other power equipment independently of system and location should look for a place in a newspaper in the horoscope sections ... ;)

Surely it is possible to design a proper isolation transformer that overcomes the problems I referred. Size of power depends a lot on the equipment - remember that a 86 dB/W speaker needs 25 times more power than a 100dB/W one!
Anyway typical values of regulation are around 3% for 1kVA , 1.5% for 4 kVA and 1% at 7.5 kVA - measured with resistive loads. Most electrical engineers will consider audiophile requirements a ridiculous overkill, but considering the Soundlabs I would never be happy with less than 7 kVA for my system (~30A at 230V).

Microstrip, thanks. I believe we are in agreement. What I was trying to say is that a dealer (High Water Sound) and a manufacturer (Bricasti) each assembled a system and chose to display it with a power conditioner that contains an isolation transformer at a show, to general public praise.

I also agree with you on the synergy front: Fremer uses Wilson Alexandria as his reference. These speakers already have prodigious bass, which is also a virtue of the Shunyata triton and typhon sonic signature. As a result he has chosen to replace the Shunyatas with Audioquest, which does everything else better than the Shunyata, other than the bass (according to his review). Harley, on the other hand uses Magico Q7 as his reference, which is more anemic in the bass. As a result, Harley has Shunyatas in his system (along with Soulution amps) to give his system extra oomph.

Coming back to transformers, does the size of the transformer really matter for anything other than amplifiers?
 

bonzo75

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Surely it is possible to design a proper isolation transformer that overcomes the problems I referred. Size of power depends a lot on the equipment - remember that a 86 dB/W speaker needs 25 times more power than a 100dB/W one!
Anyway typical values of regulation are around 3% for 1kVA , 1.5% for 4 kVA and 1% at 7.5 kVA - measured with resistive loads. Most electrical engineers will consider audiophile requirements a ridiculous overkill, but considering the Soundlabs I would never be happy with less than 7 kVA for my system (~30A at 230V).

Hi, what does this mean for Apogees in a flat? With a 20A power line, OR a Torus RM 20, would that suffice for the power amps? Understand some might feel that Torus might compromise SQ.

Also, the power chord from the wall will have a 13A fuse, maybe increase that to 15A. I can go EU plugs, fuseless from the Torus or whatever. Will that work?
 

KeithR

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Hi, what does this mean for Apogees in a flat? With a 20A power line, OR a Torus RM 20, would that suffice for the power amps? Understand some might feel that Torus might compromise SQ.

Also, the power chord from the wall will have a 13A fuse, maybe increase that to 15A. I can go EU plugs, fuseless from the Torus or whatever. Will that work?

When I purchased my Torus, the company requested my system profile and devised a solution with my dealer. They really are quite good.
 

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