Room Correction vs Room Treatment

microstrip · Aug 11, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
aren't Pipedreams a dipole speaker? (...)

I would like to have a firm confirmation on this aspect. They are line arrays, but are they true open dipoles?

In principle a dipole is much more critical to match with a subwoofer - at less it is what I remember reading in reviews of dipoles, such as Nola or Linkwitz speakers.

Mike Lavigne · Aug 11, 2016

microstrip said:
I would like to have a firm confirmation on this aspect. They are line arrays, but are they true open dipoles?

In principle a dipole is much more critical to match with a subwoofer - at less it is what I remember reading in reviews of dipoles, such as Nola or Linkwitz speakers.

here is what the website says.....

(mods---if this violates copyright then please delete.....I'm fuzzy on that)

FrantzM · Aug 11, 2016

microstrip said:
I would like to have a firm confirmation on this aspect. They are line arrays, but are they true open dipoles?

In principle a dipole is much more critical to match with a subwoofer - at less it is what I remember reading in reviews of dipoles, such as Nola or Linkwitz speakers.

They're not dipoles.

microstrip · Aug 11, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
here is what the website says.....

(mods---if this violates copyright then please delete.....I'm fuzzy on that)

View attachment 28245

Thanks. The question is that they only refer ambiguously to "dispersion greater than 90º", and we do not see any sound going through the back of the speaker to the back wall. Dipoles usually have a symmetrical radiation pattern - when implemented with dome teeters they must have tweeters in the back, as Linkwitz does in his open medium and bass dipole. It is why I am questioning.

FrantzM · Aug 11, 2016

Hi

I know one of the thing we do in this hobby is to split hair. However what happen under 80 Hz is extremely well handled by digital where all kinds of correction can be applied with the littlest effect on the rest of the spectrum. The main towers output wouldn't be affected in any way while the low can be massaged to optimal results.
I would suggest you do the following if you choose to go to the miniDSP solution: Split the output form your preamp. If your preamp has dual output even better. Send L and right signal to the Pipedream Active Crossover and the same Left and Right to the miniDSP analog input. You would use the same crossover frequency but now you have more slopes and types of crossover available ( Bessel, Butterworth, etc) you can play with them later but first run Dirac and hear it out...

The Pipedreams are IIRC crossed pretty low to their subs (under 100 Hz?) anyway. moving the subs around could help to a point. miniDSP would help dial timing to a point that is simply impossible with analog means, while it can be set in such a way not to affect the rest of the spectrum (I believe mini DSP does 48 db/Octave or perhaps more). As I thought the first reflex is that this is a low brow, low fi solution because of its not-too-far-from-free price. It is not. Modern day technology is at play and the cost (yes $550 TOTAL, perhaps shiping included

) only reflects what is possible and available with today's computing power.

rblnr · Aug 11, 2016

The above is exactly what I do with the Scaenas which are the evolution of the Pipes. I highly recommend it.

Brucemck2 · Aug 11, 2016

rblnr said:
The above is exactly what I do with the Scaenas which are the evolution of the Pipes. I highly recommend it.

You could also try the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 on just the subs. It works well at taming room issues and is close to idiot proof. The latency is low enough to not wildly screw up transient integration.

stephen_volker · Aug 11, 2016

I think my goal will be to do the mniDSP + move to the 11x21 room with the speakers on the short wall.

rblnr · Aug 11, 2016

Use to use the anti-mode and its dead simple as you say.

My room is 12.5 x 22, so in the same ballpark footprint-wise.

Mike Lavigne · Aug 11, 2016

microstrip said:
Thanks. The question is that they only refer ambiguously to "dispersion greater than 90º", and we do not see any sound going through the back of the speaker to the back wall. Dipoles usually have a symmetrical radiation pattern - when implemented with dome teeters they must have tweeters in the back, as Linkwitz does in his open medium and bass dipole. It is why I am questioning.

and why I put a question mark on my comment.

Al M. · Aug 11, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
from 1995-2003 I had my listening room in a den which was 18' x 12' x 10.5'. it had a bay window. it was a naturally fantastic sounding room and I think part of that was the bay window which naturally helped the soundstage. I did spend a couple of years putting absorption on the walls at the speaker end. it had French doors on the rear sidewall and bookcases behind my sitting position. I used pleated shades as a tunable acoustic adjustment.

your room is 14 feet wide. I would seriously consider switching to the bay window as your speaker end. with your speakers on the long walls those long walls will dominate the sound. you need more depth.

I had too much artificial soundstage depth due to the many windows in my room (too recessed image on many recordings). ASC window plugs fixed the bulk of the problem (see page 2 of my system thread linked in signature). Now I still have great soundstage depth when it is actually on the recording, but the artifact of recessed imaging when it is not warranted is mostly gone.

my 2 cents is to optimize the acoustic possibilities before you throw room correction at it. but that is just me.

Agreed. Digital room correction should be the last resort, not the first one.

microstrip · Aug 11, 2016

FrantzM said:
They're not dipoles.

Thanks. It is bad news for me and my Soundlabs - I never managed to make a good blend between dipoles and subs, excepting the ESL63 and the Celestion 6000 bass dipoles. Perhaps this specific pattern explains somewhat why Marty managed so well to match them with the JLAudio's - they Pipedreams were designed as part of a satellite/subwoofer system.

microstrip · Aug 11, 2016

rblnr said:
The above is exactly what I do with the Scaenas which are the evolution of the Pipes. I highly recommend it.

Interesting. Are they designed by the same people?

edorr · Aug 11, 2016

FWIW, I am doing both. Build floor to ceiling corner bass traps cutting up squares of 4" acoustic material into triangles, stacking up 8' of it in the corner, and put some nice frame up fabric in front of it. But of work, but works like a charm. Additionally, I am using Dirac live for DRC.

fas42 · Aug 11, 2016

The other method of creating temporal integrity, in the sense that the PipeDream brochure describes it, is to deliver a high enough quality signal to the drivers. This means that there will be enough acoustic clues, and cues, in the sound field projected into the listening area for the DSP inside your skull to decode what's going on - if this information is too blurred by the behaviour of the system prior to the speaker drivers then room correction, treatments are a way of improving one's ability to focus on the information that's still clear enough to be useful.

stephen_volker · Nov 10, 2016

I finally got the time and muscle to move the stereo equipment to the 11x20 room with the higher ceiling. The difference was very nice! I will post more images and information when I get a chance. Also, anyone happen to have 12 6SN7 tubes that they don't need that are all matched? I got another VAC 70/70 Renaissance amp and would love to match the tubes.

bonzo75 · Nov 10, 2016

microstrip said:
Thanks. It is bad news for me and my Soundlabs - I never managed to make a good blend between dipoles and subs, excepting the ESL63 and the Celestion 6000 bass dipoles. Perhaps this specific pattern explains somewhat why Marty managed so well to match them with the JLAudio's - they Pipedreams were designed as part of a satellite/subwoofer system.

He matched them very well when he had the TacT. Maybe you are referring to later when he tried with the JL crossover.

stephen_volker · Nov 23, 2016

Well, I have taken some pictures hopefully this weekend I can take some measurements and get to work on the rest of the work involved in making a great sound room. I might be moving my rack, but cabling could be complicated if I do that.

stephen_volker · Jan 14, 2018

So back to an old thread! I have moved listening chair closer to the speakers (about 6 feet from the back wall), the rack is on the side wall but will move to the back wall. I would like to do acoustic room treatments; however, I want to measure the room and do this right.

Is there anyone in the area that would be willing to help me get started with taking measurements / has a microphone I can borrow? If not, can I get some recommendations on a good mic to use? I plan on using REW and have read a fair amount on how to get started. Looking forward to recommendations / any help I can get!

Best regards,
Stephen

Rodney Gold · Jan 14, 2018

The Umik1 from minidsp is perfect
Consider tube traps for the bass and flat panel type absorbers/diffusors
If you got the budget you can top it all off with a Trinnov DRC system or if not , minidsp is pretty good

Room Correction vs Room Treatment

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