YG Acoustics Announces Sonja XV Loudspeaker
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yoav is an extremely talented designer. i used to call him like a psycho on his cell when i acquired the anat I back in 2007. when i sold them i secretly made a vow to acquire yg's again in the future as my last pair of great speakers. yg is the real deal guys esp if you are into aluminum speakers. it appears he is also slowly making progress on the low impedance issue to make them more universal (and the best) loudspeakers (on earth). period 
. i would not make assumptions or worry about tweeter height or bass integration on the xv's before hearing them.
. i would not make assumptions or worry about tweeter height or bass integration on the xv's before hearing them.
I think Mike's definitions make sense and are correct.
"2 tower integrated speaker system is where neither tower is stand alone capable; they only work as a system"
This includes Genesis 1.x and 2.x, Gryphon Pendragon, Martin-Logan Statement and Statement E2, Verity Monsalvat, etc.
Interestingly, the Goebel High End Epoque Reference appears to be a stand-alone full-range system (down to 28 Hz, anyway), to which an Epoque Baforce subwoofer can be added later. So while I cannot imagine anyone buying something as expensive as the Epoque Reference would not also spring for the matching subwoofer, this Goebel system falls into the full-range speaker + subwoofer category.
"2 tower integrated speaker system is where neither tower is stand alone capable; they only work as a system"
This includes Genesis 1.x and 2.x, Gryphon Pendragon, Martin-Logan Statement and Statement E2, Verity Monsalvat, etc.
Interestingly, the Goebel High End Epoque Reference appears to be a stand-alone full-range system (down to 28 Hz, anyway), to which an Epoque Baforce subwoofer can be added later. So while I cannot imagine anyone buying something as expensive as the Epoque Reference would not also spring for the matching subwoofer, this Goebel system falls into the full-range speaker + subwoofer category.
Hi Mike - would you consider the fact that the Wilson Crossover is designed to tail off the response of the main XLFs so that they blend with the Wilson Thor a 'system'? I think the fact that a speaker CAN work full-range on its own...but also CAN be tailed off in the lower range in order to blend 'perfectly' with a sub just makes the design of the speaker/speaker system more flexible, no?
I believe that Wilson recommends using their Crossover to tail off the XLFs at around 38hz-43hz depending on setup and then blend the Thors back in underneath that.
Still must sound marvelous. Thanks for the explanation. My saying,'There's no low end in the high end" usually applies, as most people don't ever own/hear/feel pipe organ recordings with 8hz notes or try to reproduce the large amounts of sub 20hz information in movies with their main stereo speakers. Congrats on owning such great system.
Thank you. With a moniker like yours, am I right in assuming you like deep bass?
I have been a fan of subs in my system for many years and always played movies through them as well. I do not know if I have ever felt 8hz or if the sub can even produce much meaningful bass below 10hz. Although we have a lot of deep house and a little organ music so we have enjoyed "some" deep bass, perhaps sub 20hz. Do you know of a CD where the tracks have a lot of sub 10hz material? Will a CD even play that? Would be fun to try!
Mike
I understand and respect the sentiment but my experiences differ: Integrating mains and subs is not what you make of it. It is entirely possible to integrate full range speakers with different brands of subwoofer to invisibility
))or in to be precise to no audible discontinuity between mains and subs. It is not easy, it is not plug and play but it is doable and has been done by many here, some may not want or need to reply.As matter of fact sometimes it is good to not roll the mains at all since the presence of more Low Frequency sources in the room tend to smooth out the bass response. Rolling off the mains confer the advantage of better power handling from the mains in some cases, it is not absolutely required for excellent, transparent integration. I would imagine that a speaker such as the Magico Q7 has little issues with power compression if I am to infer from some measurements I saw from the Q3 whose FR curve at 85 dB SPL was virtually identical to the FR at 95 dB. ...The Q7 would be even better in this regard. Speakers like Giya G-series have shown to be almost immune to power-compression... So when mating Mains of excellence with subs, "cobbled"is not a term I would use. It can be done as many here can testify and there are very inexpensive tools that help the adventurous or frugal audiophile: Mini-DSP comes to mind ...
This post is not a knock on 4-tower-types speakers-system. They are a good solution. I believe however it is somehow an absolutist statement that the only way to integrate is to go through the manufacturer-approved 4-tower solution.
I agree with both Mike and Frantz.
I agree with Mike that I think true integration is the preferred, optimal design and certainly the more elegant solution.
I agree with Frantz that, if very carefully executed, grafting a high-quality subwoofer, with flexible integration controls, onto a full-range system should be able to provide very satisfying results.
Picking up on Kedar's feeling that, when a full-range loudspeaker has a single low frequency woofer in the bottom of the cabinet, one may be able to hear the low frequencies coming from the lower section of the cabinet -- I think I hear this when I listen to the MartinLogan Neolith -- a vertical stack of external subwoofers for each channel should help to ameliorate this issue for people who are sensitive to it.
I agree with Mike that I think true integration is the preferred, optimal design and certainly the more elegant solution.
I agree with Frantz that, if very carefully executed, grafting a high-quality subwoofer, with flexible integration controls, onto a full-range system should be able to provide very satisfying results.
Picking up on Kedar's feeling that, when a full-range loudspeaker has a single low frequency woofer in the bottom of the cabinet, one may be able to hear the low frequencies coming from the lower section of the cabinet -- I think I hear this when I listen to the MartinLogan Neolith -- a vertical stack of external subwoofers for each channel should help to ameliorate this issue for people who are sensitive to it.
I think we are forgetting that towers means something with significant height. Creating a line of bass units with the center of gravity off the floor can have some advantages - I remember Dynaudio has definitive thoughts on this and even reversed the positioning of units in their Consequence speakers, mainly to have the large bass off the floor.
Back to adding subs. IMHO the critical point of bass integration is not the flat nice looking measurement, but bass "integration" in the system.
In this great interview about active loudspeaker systems, four great speaker designers refer to how critical the bass integration can be. http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/343-active-loudspeaker-systems-on-the-rise-peter-roth-talks-with-andy-payor-laurence-dickie-and-richard-vandersteen
Each of us can pick the part of it that supports his points, I found interesting that Andy Payor expressively states:
"I make it a point to affirm that the active Arrakis has no “subwoofer” section, but that the extremely light, very compliant, low-distortion twin 15” woofers, each with approximately four cubic feet of volume, should be viewed as the foundation of the system, not merely an adjunct to extend bass. Because we are not attempting a lawless coercion of nature to extend the bass response, the integration is exceptional. "
Or Richard Vandersteen
"But as this new full-range system developed, I found that for bass to sound real, the entire wavefront [had to be] involved, especially the midrange."
In this hobby, where sound quality opinions are due to our perception of reproduced sound, we can not interpret statements as absolute statements, but as statistical weighted statements. IMHO our direct experience will always be very limited and we are strongly influenced by what we read and speak about. But for me, it makes perfect sense that in general, the best bass reproduction for stereo is achieved using a system developed by the main speaker designer. But this does not prevent people from achieving excellent results using high quality subwoofers and tuning them, particularly considering value for money. But IMHO, in this approach success is more a question of experience and luck of the user than of science and straight rules. YMMV.
Back to adding subs. IMHO the critical point of bass integration is not the flat nice looking measurement, but bass "integration" in the system.
In this great interview about active loudspeaker systems, four great speaker designers refer to how critical the bass integration can be. http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/343-active-loudspeaker-systems-on-the-rise-peter-roth-talks-with-andy-payor-laurence-dickie-and-richard-vandersteen
Each of us can pick the part of it that supports his points, I found interesting that Andy Payor expressively states:
"I make it a point to affirm that the active Arrakis has no “subwoofer” section, but that the extremely light, very compliant, low-distortion twin 15” woofers, each with approximately four cubic feet of volume, should be viewed as the foundation of the system, not merely an adjunct to extend bass. Because we are not attempting a lawless coercion of nature to extend the bass response, the integration is exceptional. "
Or Richard Vandersteen
"But as this new full-range system developed, I found that for bass to sound real, the entire wavefront [had to be] involved, especially the midrange."
In this hobby, where sound quality opinions are due to our perception of reproduced sound, we can not interpret statements as absolute statements, but as statistical weighted statements. IMHO our direct experience will always be very limited and we are strongly influenced by what we read and speak about. But for me, it makes perfect sense that in general, the best bass reproduction for stereo is achieved using a system developed by the main speaker designer. But this does not prevent people from achieving excellent results using high quality subwoofers and tuning them, particularly considering value for money. But IMHO, in this approach success is more a question of experience and luck of the user than of science and straight rules. YMMV.
Just as positioning of a subwoofer in the room has a significant impact upon its performance, the position in the z-axis (height) is a factor as well. Therefore, a subwoofer "tower", besides obscuring the apparent source of bass as being near the floor, may well greatly improve bass performance if its x&y axis placement is well chosen.
Lee
Lee
My experience is similar to Fritz that barring any room anomalies one is better off using the main speaker full range without any roll off and augmenting the bottom as/if needed with a passive subwoofer. To be clear we're discussing external subs and not dedicated woofer towers/boxes that are part of the main speaker's design like the Wilson Watt Puppy, Genesis speakers and others. How one approaches amplification and integration of subs and a full range main speaker is a separate discussion.
david
david
Mike
I understand and respect the sentiment but my experiences differ: Integrating mains and subs is not what you make of it. It is entirely possible to integrate full range speakers with different brands of subwoofer to invisibility
As matter of fact sometimes it is good to not roll the mains at all since the presence of more Low Frequency sources in the room tend to smooth out the bass response. Rolling off the mains confer the advantage of better power handling from the mains in some cases, it is not absolutely required for excellent, transparent integration. I would imagine that a speaker such as the Magico Q7 has little issues with power compression if I am to infer from some measurements I saw from the Q3 whose FR curve at 85 dB SPL was virtually identical to the FR at 95 dB. ...The Q7 would be even better in this regard. Speakers like Giya G-series have shown to be almost immune to power-compression... So when mating Mains of excellence with subs, "cobbled"is not a term I would use. It can be done as many here can testify and there are very inexpensive tools that help the adventurous or frugal audiophile: Mini-DSP comes to mind ...
This post is not a knock on 4-tower-types speakers-system. They are a good solution. I believe however it is somehow an absolutist statement that the only way to integrate is to go through the manufacturer-approved 4-tower solution.
..I've had multiple satellite/subwoofer combos over the years primarily due to lack of funds for a true full range speaker. The first was back in the late 70s with a pair of Braun minis and a old passive M&K subwoofer. Did it sound great?..nope. Next was a pr of ML Aerius i's and a single Velodyne SPL 1200 (actually squeezed between the Brauns and the MLs was a pr of Snell Type A Improved).. Did it sound great?...well pretty darn good and pretty darn seamless. I currently run my VSA VR5 Anniversaries with a pr of Velodyne Optimum 12s...and yes, this combination IS great. I have the subs set at 60hz and have never noticed a problem with the integration, overlap be damned. To my ears it sounds very seamless. Actually to a number of knowledgeable A'philes it sounds about as good as it gets. Someone here described trying to marry a subwoofer with a full range speaker as "cobbled". That would not be true in my experience.
It will be interesting when YG comes out with a dedicated sub one day that will out displace all the other audiophile companies drivers and have better SQ too. I think they have the technology.
Or it may exacerbate room modes which is probably the biggest down side to bass towers and 1 benefit of stand - alones or as other have called it "non - integrated" subs/bass towers.
More specifically, the fact that the bass towers are designed as a main <-> bass tower xover integration likely limits placement (hence the common behind and out placement relative to mains) which again, can wreak havoc in your room. Unless they play >~80Hz separates placed sonically/strategically in the room would be the way to go, but I guess you lose the eye candy effect..
Apologies if this is spelled out in YG's press release and I missed it........is that bottom driver in the main tower sharing the frequencies with the three lower-mid(or whatever) drivers above it? Or is it covering the same bass frequencies as the tower several FEET(!!) behind it? The latter violates some inner acoustical/philosophical sacred creed I have(I'll get over it).
And it seems from the initial reports that the newer tweeter is vastly improved; getting similar accolades Magico's new tweeter has received. I make that comparison because both tweets go lower than their predecessor. I know that the 2 - 2.5K range is where we're supposed to be the most sensitive to anomalies.......Are we that less sensitive to junk just a few hundred hz below that?
And it seems from the initial reports that the newer tweeter is vastly improved; getting similar accolades Magico's new tweeter has received. I make that comparison because both tweets go lower than their predecessor. I know that the 2 - 2.5K range is where we're supposed to be the most sensitive to anomalies.......Are we that less sensitive to junk just a few hundred hz below that?
YG Acoustics™ Announces a New, Breakthrough Technology
YG Acoustics™ proudly presents BilletDome™ - a new, patent-pending, breakthrough tweeter technology.
A short video illustrating BilletDome™ can be found here [youtu.be/8IqkHMPrX2A]For slower connections, a mid-res version can be found [youtu.be/Xw9QEmt8ts4]
The brand new, patent-pending BilletDome™ tweeter is YG Acoustics™’ most complex mechanical invention to date: a resonance-free soft dome is supported by a stiff, light airframe machined from aluminum billet. The airframe weighs a mere 30 milligrams (0.001 oz), but its critical sections are up to 14 times thicker than a typical hard dome, so its structural rigidity is vastly superior even to domes made of the most exotic hard materials. Finally, a tweeter that ends the age-old debate of hard dome versus soft dome, by combining the best of both.
BilletDome™ is used exclusively in YG Acoustics™’ new “super-speaker”, Sonja™ XV.
YG Acoustics™ proudly presents BilletDome™ - a new, patent-pending, breakthrough tweeter technology.
A short video illustrating BilletDome™ can be found here [youtu.be/8IqkHMPrX2A]For slower connections, a mid-res version can be found [youtu.be/Xw9QEmt8ts4]
The brand new, patent-pending BilletDome™ tweeter is YG Acoustics™’ most complex mechanical invention to date: a resonance-free soft dome is supported by a stiff, light airframe machined from aluminum billet. The airframe weighs a mere 30 milligrams (0.001 oz), but its critical sections are up to 14 times thicker than a typical hard dome, so its structural rigidity is vastly superior even to domes made of the most exotic hard materials. Finally, a tweeter that ends the age-old debate of hard dome versus soft dome, by combining the best of both.
BilletDome™ is used exclusively in YG Acoustics™’ new “super-speaker”, Sonja™ XV.
This just makes me want to you to define technology... Subwoofers are not rocket science.
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