LPs of new release music

amirm

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This is a question I have been meaning to ask from you all LP experts :).

I often see people go and buy LPs of new music releases. I have to believe these are recorded and mixed down in digital. And therefor the LP is an analog conversion of digital. If these assumptions are correct, what is the appeal of the LP as opposed to getting the same bit stream in digital domain?

Is it that the high-res conversion to analog is preferred to down-sampled & down-res'ed CD version? What if the music was available without the reduced resolution? The preference remains?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Amir,

many (i don't know the percentage) modern recordings are mastered in analog....although many are not. so it's a crap shoot on which will sound lots better than the CD. then there is the care with which the Lp gets mastered regardless of source.

i have a few friends who do buy quite a bit of new vinyl from modern recordings and i rely on them to steer me to the 'good stuff'.

these days many artists have an analog sensitivity and like to present their music on Lps to people who care about the sound. just like any 'first pressings' small runs of 'cared for' vinyl sometimes sounds remarkably good.

again; come on over sometime and i'll play you a number of great sounding modern recordings on vinyl. unfortunately it's many times difficult to determine what the source is.

the hi-rez question is all over the board; sometimes the Lp does sound much better. i particularly find that DSD sourced Lps are not much better than the SACD's. i find hi-rez PCM mastered recordings more uniformily better than CD versions. but those are generalizations and reflect my perspective on SACD compared to redbook.

i think my hirez PCM-Lp conversion perspective is because the Lp mastering process adds a bit of space and body that PCM inherently misses in the original mastering process, where SACD does not nearly have that to the same degree.

there are plenty of cases where the CD sounds better as you surmise.
 

RBFC

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Apr 20, 2010
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I had an interesting experience with Telarc LPs and CDs. Of course, I'm talking about the earliest years of digital. I found that the LPs often sounded considerably better than the CDs, which (as Amir posited) makes little sense. Combining the distortions and limitations of both approaches doesn't seem like it would produce a better result than a single "distortion". There are two possible reasons for this outcome, as I see it.

1. The "distortions" in the early digital recording chain are masked/negated by the analog "distortions", producing a null result in some instances.

2. Early digital reproduction devices (transports, DACs, analog output stages {in digital devices} which weren't given much attention) did a very poor job of playing back native digital recordings.

In either case, I found the early digital LPs to sound superior. The famous Frederick Fennell conducts Holst Band Suites is an example:

http://www.amazon.com/Holst-Suite-H...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290622179&sr=1-1 CD

http://www.amazon.com/Frederick-Fen...=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290622222&sr=1-4 LP


Lee
 

Ron Party

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Apr 30, 2010
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what is the appeal of the LP as opposed to getting the same bit stream in digital domain?
Well that is the question, isn't it? For us mortal consumers, we cannot get the same bit stream. Instead we get highly compressed music.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I had an interesting experience with Telarc LPs and CDs. Of course, I'm talking about the earliest years of digital. I found that the LPs often sounded considerably better than the CDs, which (as Amir posited) makes little sense. Combining the distortions and limitations of both approaches doesn't seem like it would produce a better result than a single "distortion". There are two possible reasons for this outcome, as I see it.

1. The "distortions" in the early digital recording chain are masked/negated by the analog "distortions", producing a null result in some instances.

2. Early digital reproduction devices (transports, DACs, analog output stages {in digital devices} which weren't given much attention) did a very poor job of playing back native digital recordings.

In either case, I found the early digital LPs to sound superior. The famous Frederick Fennell conducts Holst Band Suites is an example:

http://www.amazon.com/Holst-Suite-H...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290622179&sr=1-1 CD

http://www.amazon.com/Frederick-Fen...=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290622222&sr=1-4 LP


Lee

i agree about the Telarc's, but there were a few reasons for that. they were mastered at 48k, not 44k like redbook....so they should sound better. and the vinyl was very very nicely done. even Telarc SACD's mastered from those 48k files are quite good.

there are a number of DG Classical digital recordings from the late 70's and early 80's which sound wonderful on Lp. some of them are quite expensive to acquire too.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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many (i don't know the percentage) modern recordings are mastered in analog....although many are not.
Oh, I didn't realize that was still going on.

And thanks again for the invitation. This "arctic freeze" we are having this week in Seattle really screwed up my plans. Spent the entire day yesterday troubleshooting and repairing why our brand new furnace was shutting down as the repair guy couldn't make it to our house! :(
 

flez007

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Amirm - you posted an interesting question here, I had experienced not that great results with modern recordings on vinyl - but compared to digital they are still a tad better sounding than CDs. After many trials I decided to better focus and grow my library with "old" Jazz/Blues/Classical in vinyl and get CD for "new" Alternative/Pop/Rock titles.

Forgot to mention that I even have a third alternative thru my Digital Server, I download as much as I can from ITunes (mostly tracks) and if they worth the time I get either the CD or the LP.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Oh, I didn't realize that was still going on.

And thanks again for the invitation. This "arctic freeze" we are having this week in Seattle really screwed up my plans. Spent the entire day yesterday troubleshooting and repairing why our brand new furnace was shutting down as the repair guy couldn't make it to our house! :(

i had 12" of snow Monday night at my house; so at 5am Tuesday morning i had to use my Honda snow blower tractor to clear my driveway so my wife could get out and do Thanksgiving grocery shopping.

last night it was 11 degrees.

i cannot believe the November weather!

come on over when it works out.
 

DWR

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No snow here yet but it was 21 degrees lat night, just put the carb back on the snow blower yesterday after soaking it in parts cleaner to get it cleaned out after it gummed up on the fuel intake side because some moron left gas in it all summer without the stabil in the gas. As for the question at hand though, I really think it comes down to how much effort is put into the mastering be it analog or digital. Some of the most raved about pieces of vinyl are digitally mastered and sound great like The Cowboy Junkies- The Trinity Session and The Caution Horses are both from digital masters. I also own a couple of Chick Corea albums, Elektric Band and Akoustic Band that are both digitally mastered and sound great, I also have digitally mastered vinyl like Diane Schuur, Schuur Thing that is digitally mastered and it sounds like hell. The latest album I picked up the other day King Crimson ITCOKG was remastered in analog and sounds fabulous, now myself I am not locked down to either digital or analog playback, I listen to both and there is good and bad from both.

Dan

Dan
 

DWR

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Kind of a follow up here after re-reading Amir's original post. The examples I used in my post, the King Crimson and The Cowboy Junkies, I have both on CD and Vinyl and on those two I still prefer the vinyl, to my ear it just sounds better. Now this maybe a difference in my playback equipment too, but whatever the reason the vinyl sounds better to me.

Dan
 

amirm

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Dan, how would you characterize the difference? Are they mixed identically and the only difference is fidelity? Or is there clear tonality difference.
 

DWR

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OK I will try and put this into words the best I can. On the King Crimsom, in the song Moon Child, the chimes and bells at the end of the song are noticeably clearer and crisper on the vinyl, and yes both the cd and the vinyl are the latest remasters so this is a good comparison. The entire album sounds clearer than the cd version. The really strange thing about this is the fact that my phono pre is nowhere near as "quiet" as my disc playback equipment. On the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Session vinyl in the beginning of the album when the HVAC unit comes on in the church, on the vinyl it sounds like you are right there and the HVAC came on in your room, whereas the cd you hear the sound but have to think to yourself what is that and when you really listen you realize its the HVAC. I hope that somewhat answers your question and makes sense. Like I said I am sure some of it is the difference in the equipment although both my digital and analog equipment are on about the same level, nothing super high end. I use an Oppo 83SE with a tube modified 2 channel section for digital, and a 274B tube rectified 12ax7 phono preamp for the analog.

Dan
 

DWR

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Amir, the above examples are how I hear them but in no way am I trying to say that the vinyl is better for playback than digital. There is quite the "discussion" going on in the Ethan Winer forum an the differences in the two and which is "better" and I will not get into that. The reason being that in the two examples I stated above the vinyl recordings sound better to me, but on the other hand if I put in my K2HD cd of jazz in the pawnshop the same "I am right there in the room" sound comes through using the digital equipment, that disc sounds like I could call the waiter over for a gin and tonic, it sounds that "real" to me, the Carpenters Gold album also K2HD is the same way.

Dan
 

flez007

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I would describe the differences as a more fluid, realistic and balanced presentation comparing the same CD and Vinyl album, this is the case when some friends come by my house and are doubtfull around vinyl playback - I drop Nathalie Merchant's Tigerlilly to compare, track 7.
 

DWR

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Great album Flez, in my case though I have the standard cd and on vinyl I have the MOFI 45rpm version and the comparison between the two isn't too fair. The vinyl sounds noticeably better than the cd in the ways you describe in your post. Now if I had the MOFI cd as well it would be a much more fair comparison.

Dan
 

garylkoh

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As for the question at hand though, I really think it comes down to how much effort is put into the mastering be it analog or digital. Some of the most raved about pieces of vinyl are digitally mastered and sound great like The Cowboy Junkies- The Trinity Session and The Caution Horses are both from digital masters. I also own a couple of Chick Corea albums, Elektric Band and Akoustic Band that are both digitally mastered and sound great, I also have digitally mastered vinyl like Diane Schuur, Schuur Thing that is digitally mastered and it sounds like hell. The latest album I picked up the other day King Crimson ITCOKG was remastered in analog and sounds fabulous, now myself I am not locked down to either digital or analog playback, I listen to both and there is good and bad from both.

Dan,
Like you, I am not locked down to digital or analog, and I've had the same experience. We are discussing the same thing as on the other thread, but I think also pertinent to Amir's question.

Some of the LPs may have been mastered on DAT at 48kHz, and resampled to 44.1kHz for CD re-issue. When I listen to the LP of Trinity Sessions, and then the CD, the differences are similar to the 48kHz digital files that I (badly) resample to 44.1kHz to burn a CD. I don't have a good enough resampler.

I also have the same experience with Jazz at the Pawnshop. The K2HD CD is far better than all except my first pressing.
 

DWR

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The MOFI vinyl is made from the original analog master tape run at half speed, they claim that running the speed at 1/2 reduces the power required by the cutting amplifiers by 1/3 to 1/2 thus reducing the heat and distortion and achieving greater transient response. This is all done on a highly modified Studer A-80 with proprietary reproducer electronics, customized cutting electronics and amplifiers driving an Ortofon cutter head on a restored Neumann lathe. (all info from MOFI) Also running at half speed gives the cutter head twice the time to direct cut the groove into the master laquer. Sure sounds impressive huh, so does their vinyl.

Dan
 

DWR

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Hi Gary, yes I have been following the other thread, I prefer not to get involved in the which is better part of it, but threads like these make this a great forum IMO. It is nice being able to "tap" the technical knowledge of some of the members here like yourself, I am learning a lot. Gary are most or all of the K2HD discs that much better than say what I call a standard redbook cd? The few that I have sure do sound good.

Dan
 

jazdoc

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For the most part, vinyl releases are superior to their digital counterparts. There is a continuiousness and timbral quality that CD doesn't often capture. Recent exceptions include Phosphorescent's "Taking It Easy" (the CD sucks, the LP is excreble, but the music is terrific) and the most recent Iron & Wine LP.

I usually purchase the vinyl if given the choice.

Smaller labels are really getting creative. I recently picked up Tame Impala's "Innersound" which was released on 2x45 rpm format! Some artists actually release the vinyl ahead of the digital release.
 

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