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Thread: Speaker Challenge . . .

  1. #1
    Site Founder And Administrator Ron Resnick's Avatar
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    Speaker Challenge . . .

    After Hearing Henk's re-built Apogee Grands I would like to see someone make a speaker with a ribbon tweeter crossed over to a ribbon midrange crossed over to Apogee Full Range or Apogee Grand woofer panels crossed over to a separate, tall column of dynamic drivers (conventional cones). And the ribbon drivers should be sensitive enough to be powered by tube amplifiers.

    What speaker in production today do you think most closely approximates this design brief?
    Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer

    turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, Schröder LT; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Air Tight Opus-1; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 power supplies; line stage: VTL TL-7.5 Series III; amplifier: VTL Siegfried Series II; loudspeaker: Gryphon Pendragon; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Herzan + Taiko Tana + Evo LPS for Io, custom for turntable, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Benjamin Electric subpanel, JPS in-wall wire, Furutech NCF outlets, Torus AVR60BAL; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; acoustic treatment: SoundSense A.T.I. + Lumitex drapes + Vibramat, ASC IsoThermal Tube Traps; tweaks: Shakti Stones, Shun Mooks, self-propelled sound-absorbing cocker-poo

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    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] Folsom's Avatar
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    Piega a Master Line Source.

    But it's a little confusing what you're asking. It sounds like you want 4 different drivers of different frequency ranges? That's uncommon, especially with planars. You might just add a sub tower to an existing speaker set? (I suggest a swarm)

    Given how drivers work with frequency, there's little to no reason to cover the full range from 4 drivers unless the lowest octave is a swarm subwoofer setup from what I can see with planars. There isn't much advantage to trying to squeeze uber performance from a tower of subwoofers that can't really outperform a woofer tower; except say with movies. The problem is that for music they aren't going to load the space any better since they're subject to nodes etc. I'm sure you're well familiar with the problem.

    Woofer frequency range is just below the mid. It's very easy to crossover mids to woofers since the distance between drivers crossed at say 200-300hz can be rather large before the ear perceives them as being different sources. Where as tweeter to mid has to be much smaller. The 300-3k range for mids is a critical area because any phase differences caused by multiple drivers not wokring in sync the ear picks up on much easier. So I don't recommend more than one driver in the range, and the crossing with the tweeter is critical so that the ear doesn't recognize the difference. The Piega has an advantage here because the mid and tweeter are on the exact same plane.

    It works, but just to mention if you're desire is a more fullrange frequency of say having the mid driver play well down into the lower octave then the low frequencies will tend to distort the higher ones in that wide range. Just to say, since it seems like that's part of this description you give.

  3. #3
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Resnick View Post
    After Hearing Henk's re-built Apogee Grands I would like to see someone make a speaker with a ribbon tweeter crossed over to a ribbon midrange crossed over to Apogee Full Range or Apogee Grand woofer panels crossed over to a separate, tall column of dynamic drivers (conventional cones). And the ribbon drivers should be sensitive enough to be powered by tube amplifiers.

    What speaker in production today do you think most closely approximates this design brief?
    Magnepan 20.7i with multiple subs would approach this ideal. Magnepan speakers could well be the Rodney Dangerfield of Audio. They are known to be very good and challenge speakers costing several time their prices, yet in the discussion for great speakers, they are rarely mentioned. The knock on them could well be their modest price. I would be one of the first to agree they have their fault... then again so do all speaker from Acapella to Zellaton, regardless of model or price, none is perfect. I think that Magnepan speakers should be more rigid. Their frames flex when handled and I have no doubt that these do so while playing. More structural integrity would help the sound IMHO. Crossover parts are not the greatest, perhaps they could gain by using better quality parts and perhaps an outside box. Also I would think that limiting the amount of bass that reaches the woofer panels would result in increased clarity in that magical 100 Hz to 250 Hz , Ron is talking about: The Maggies are among the best in this region ( John Dunleavy speakers designs Dunleavy speakers and Duntech remain the kings of midbass "bloom and "authority" in my book.). And use multiple distributed subwoofer in the bass. Von Schweikert did or perhaps still has a model with a distributed sub approach I believe 2 in the back of the listening position.
    Maggie 20.7 + Stands such as the Mye or Mods for the frame + Replacement of crossover parts ( I have my doubt there but remain open to the idea that better components would result in better sound) + Finding ways to passively or actively (my preference) to reduce bass under 100 Hz to the speaker a simple 6 dB/Octave crossover or actively doing this via things like Dirac or Acourate?
    4 serious but not uber subs from say, JL Audio (Fathom) or Seaton (Submersive) , Paradigm (Sub 1) . Using several subs provide much higher output and lower distortion.

    Such a system is feasible and may cost much less than many top shelf under $50K while challenging the best out there ..

    Marty is using JL Audio Gotham and their crossover with his Pipedreams . One could well do the same with Maggies to approach what Ron is thinking about .... Food for thought.. and to say I am thinking about leaving the Magnepan stable
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  4. #4
    Site Founder And Administrator Ron Resnick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    Piega a Master Line Source. . . .
    These speakers look very interesting! I had never heard of them before! I see that Matej in Mono and Stereo has written about them twice.
    Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer

    turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, Schröder LT; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Air Tight Opus-1; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 power supplies; line stage: VTL TL-7.5 Series III; amplifier: VTL Siegfried Series II; loudspeaker: Gryphon Pendragon; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Herzan + Taiko Tana + Evo LPS for Io, custom for turntable, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Benjamin Electric subpanel, JPS in-wall wire, Furutech NCF outlets, Torus AVR60BAL; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; acoustic treatment: SoundSense A.T.I. + Lumitex drapes + Vibramat, ASC IsoThermal Tube Traps; tweaks: Shakti Stones, Shun Mooks, self-propelled sound-absorbing cocker-poo

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    seems like you're spinning your wheels here, Ron.

    I can't imagine something like this would be remotely coherent.

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    [WBF Founding Member] Addicted to Best! JackD201's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Resnick View Post
    These speakers look very interesting! I had never heard of them before! I see that Matej in Mono and Stereo has written about them twice.
    They aren't very tall though.

    We carry a line of speakers from Oz that uses a high efficiency ribbon with flat impedance but it only uses one for both mids and highs then crosses over to cone woofers. They roll off to 16kHz so that appears to be the upper limit and needs augmentation from there. They also go only to about 100Hz. It covers pretty much the vocal range but again needs help. Gary's Genesis appears to be the closest thing since it only lacks a bass panel and it has been proven that they aren't current vampires. 20.1s and a set of towers look to fit the bill except for their need for lots of juice.

    Maybe the Panoramas fit in here somewhere although I've never seen a pair in the flesh. No idea how well it does big dynamics next to those already mentioned. Specs suggest the Symposium Panny's are an easy load.

    I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to having even coverage throughout a room especially since I screwed up my ITD and thus move about even more. I wonder how a speaker with a big mid/bass panel would do in this regard. Gary has that bit licked from what I've heard through the grapevine. I hear their a lot like my own speakers where someone could be in between me and the speaker on one side without the stage collapsing completely. I saw a picture somewhere where someone added a line of midwoofers to what looked like either IRS or Genesis wings. Hmmm. Where DID I see that?
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    Site Founder And Administrator Ron Resnick's Avatar
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    So the Oz speakers and the Genesis and the Pendragon all use a single ribbon for both mids and highs. It is interesting to me that Jason Bloom used two ribbons to cover that range.

    Gary's speakers do an excellent job with off-axis response. For that reason you would probably like them the best of all of the planar speakers. No "head in the vise" is required for Genesis speakers.
    Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer

    turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, Schröder LT; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Air Tight Opus-1; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse with 2 power supplies; line stage: VTL TL-7.5 Series III; amplifier: VTL Siegfried Series II; loudspeaker: Gryphon Pendragon; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Herzan + Taiko Tana + Evo LPS for Io, custom for turntable, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Benjamin Electric subpanel, JPS in-wall wire, Furutech NCF outlets, Torus AVR60BAL; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; acoustic treatment: SoundSense A.T.I. + Lumitex drapes + Vibramat, ASC IsoThermal Tube Traps; tweaks: Shakti Stones, Shun Mooks, self-propelled sound-absorbing cocker-poo

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Resnick View Post
    So the Oz speakers and the Genesis and the Pendragon all use a single ribbon for both mids and highs. It is interesting to me that Jason Bloom used two ribbons to cover that range.

    Gary's speakers do an excellent job with off-axis response. For that reason you would probably like them the best of all of the planar speakers. No "head in the vise" is required for Genesis speakers.
    Hello Ron, separate tweeters are being used for the highs in the (larger) Genesis speakers. They are positioned alongside the large midrange ribbon. The larger models like the the G 1.1/1.2/dragon are using more tweeters than the smaller models like the G 200/200i/2.2..

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    Hi Ron,

    I heard these at RMAF a while back and was just blown away. http://www.symposiumusa.com/panorama.html.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Resnick View Post
    So the Oz speakers and the Genesis and the Pendragon all use a single ribbon for both mids and highs. It is interesting to me that Jason Bloom used two ribbons to cover that range.

    Gary's speakers do an excellent job with off-axis response. For that reason you would probably like them the best of all of the planar speakers. No "head in the vise" is required for Genesis speakers.
    Dear Ron, Just one correction about Pendragon Speakers, It have 4 AMT super tweeters per side for highs and 2 meter ribbon for mids. As can be seen on this picture. The yellow AMTs are the super tweeters for high frequency range.

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