Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

Ron Resnick · Aug 3, 2016

KeithR said:
Apogees with "high output" SET makes zero sense to me and most likely will result in high levels of distortion. Check out the Wavac HE-833 measurements to see what I mean.

Speaking only for myself . . . to my ears there is a naturalness in the midrange (and in the treble) from using tubes to drive electrostatic panels and ribbon drivers. I have heard this with tubes on Magnepan MG-IIIAs, Martin-Logans, and Analysis Audio Omegas.

When I compared the tetrode mode to the triode mode on the VTL MB-750s I preferred the triode mode on vocals and acoustic instruments. I kept the amps in triode mode and I have never switched them back to tetrode. (I understand that many people who prioritize rock and symphony orchestra prefer the tetrode mode.)

For people who like tubes in general the SET "effect" on the midrange provides even more "sweetness" and "liquidness." Since I enjoy the sound from powering an electrostatic or ribbon driver with 300 watts of VTL in triode mode I can't help but wonder if I can power the same drivers with 170 watts of N.A.T. Magma SET.

This, I believe, is the same thought process driving SpiritofMusic's questions.

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

Ron tubes will sound more natural than SS, where they worl. Thing is, my Verity, which I liked, and could be driven by 30 - 100 watt valve amps, did not sound more natural to me than Plinius with a duetta. Granted, the NATs and the Jadis would sound more natural than the Plinius on my Verity.

So should I buy the Verity or the Duetta, given that NAT and Jadis > Plinius?

Ron Resnick · Aug 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Ron tubes will sound more natural than SS, where they worl. Thing is, my Verity, which I liked, and could be driven by 30 - 100 watt valve amps, did not sound more natural to me than Plinius with a duetta. Granted, the NATs and the Jadis would sound more natural than the Plinius on my Verity.

So should I buy the Verity or the Duetta, given that NAT and Jadis > Plinius?

I say go high enough up in tube power, whether push-pull or SET, to make the Duettas sing! On Graz-ribboned Duettas the N.A.T. Magmas (170 watts) would have to be amazing.

PS: David's report that Manley Ref 350s made the Divas sound only "passable" does concern me (but David is probably a lot more particular than I am).

Lissnr · Aug 3, 2016

Ked,
If I may remind you of the FUNdamental equation proven during your visit to New York?
Competent TUBE Power (or overly excessive tube power IF funds permit)
PLUS
Restored Apogee Duettas (my vote are TSW Ultimates)
PLUS
Appropriate room size
____________________________________________________________
='s AMAZING - YOU - ARE - THERE - MUSICAL - BLISS.
'Enuff' said

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

Lissnr said:
Ked,
If I may remind you of the FUNdamental equation proven during your visit to New York?
Competent TUBE Power (or overly excessive tube power IF funds permit)
PLUS
Restored Apogee Duettas (my vote are TSW Ultimates)
PLUS
Appropriate room size
____________________________________________________________
='s AMAZING - YOU - ARE - THERE - MUSICAL - BLISS.
'Enuff' said

True. But the NAT is lower power, that's all. We don't have TRL in Europe but we have Ayon Orthos, KT 150 300w triode 400w pentode. My thing is I loved it with TRL, I loved it with Plinius. I am just amp-agnostic as long as the amp is not the wrong amp. I get that I can find a better amp. I have never liked speakers I don't like with any amp. And speakers that I like, I have liked with multiple amps

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

Guys let me come out of the closet here. I must confess I have liked the Gamut better than the ARC Ref 110 on my Martin Logan Summits, the bridged Luxman M800 class A better than the Ypilon Aelius on the Vivid G1s (though the owner Joel prefers it the other way marginally), and I saw no reason to select Spectral over VTL or the other way, seeing pluses in both. I also liked the Vitus class A over the much more expensive Kondo. At the same time I love Jadis, NAT, KR, and the TRL did wonders. So, good to be me

I did like the VTLs over the Levinsons on the Avalons.

spiritofmusic · Aug 3, 2016

Lissnr
Would the issue of 12' width have been inability to space the Duettas wider than 7'?
Or the actual approximation with side walls?
In my particular loft space I can literally not have 6' high Divas no wider than 7' before outer top corner abuts sloping eaves
Duettas, Trios, both at 5' high, and my Zus at 4', can all be 8' plus apart
I'm feeling that my roofline compromise with the Divas would be trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot, despite the overall room size being perfect for them and FRs
A possibility might be Henk's Duettas powered by monstrous NAT Magmas at 190W/ch Class A

spiritofmusic · Aug 3, 2016

Keith
I remain a massive Zu fan
And the new Experiences flagships will be the only thing together with my current Def 4s which keep me in the box spkr camp

microstrip · Aug 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Ron tubes will sound more natural than SS, where they worl. Thing is, my Verity, which I liked, and could be driven by 30 - 100 watt valve amps, did not sound more natural to me than Plinius with a duetta. Granted, the NATs and the Jadis would sound more natural than the Plinius on my Verity.

So should I buy the Verity or the Duetta, given that NAT and Jadis > Plinius?

Can I ask you what Plinius? I have got an used SA250 MKiV for cheap for the summer months (in class AB, surely) but I now am trying to sell it - decent sound but almost 70kgs. My back still hurts after the last time I tried to move it ...

Lissnr · Aug 3, 2016

Hello Spirit...FWIW my room is 13'2"W with an 8'10" centerline peak and 7' sidewalls. My speakers are 6'6" apart and about 10" from their lowest side edge (their widest width) from their respective sidewall. If your width is 12' you would have to incrementally balance that 'lost' 14" through some degree between these distance parameters. It would be impossible to 'pre-plan' it because actually doing it in person is the only way to let your ears (the deciding judges) decide. I might speculate a starting point maybe ...at 6" from each sidewall and exactly 6' apart and work it from there.

Though I have seen pictures of Divas in rooms such as ours...in all honesty I can not truly believe their owners were letting the divas deliver their best, regardless of amplification type/power/or otherwise. Yes I suspect they could sound somewhat satisfying if one never knew how good they could be but that's not the criteria I would base my satisfaction level by...after all... we are discussing an almost living legend of music and not to please the diva? She won't please you.

Remember, as the Duettas get closer you'll lose some of the width of course but I've read a 6' minimum can still be quite rewarding. And 190 wpc? If a Ref 75 can do very very well...then you do the math!

Just as another FYI: although I have NOT heard it...the most intriguing new amp to me, if I was forced to replace my GT200's would be the new Rogue Audio 250+ wpc / 6 @ KT120's per channel RCA and XLR, ultralinear or Triode (on the fly) monos. They look killer... $15K U.S. http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_ApolloDark.htm

Zero000 · Aug 3, 2016

With the three iterations of MRT drivers and related x-over config I have had in my two pairs of Duettas, I will say that the mid range sound has varied a lot. At the moment, my speakers are running too mid-range hot. Jon will be coming down to have a play as we tune the x-over in by my ears.

What I will say is that no matter what you do, I believe Duetta mid range will never be as "nice" as the Analysis equivalent driver is. It is more revealing than the Analysis by nature. I am unsure precisely why, it just seems to be that way. It definitely has more bite to it, and is more ruthlessly analytical.

Duettas are a very perplexing speaker to own. They are intense, and they will leave you dumstruck with awe on many occasions. They will also frustrate you, because they present much more information to you than (and I really do think this is true) virtually anything else out there. That means you have to take the rough with the smooth, but at the same time they are capable of sounding excellent on a very wide selection of program. The other thing, of course, is that to an audiophile, nothing is ever 100% right. You only need to read the Hi-Fi Advice Apogee articles on the various speaker models to realise that. It is a sort of "Apogee fever". And it is contagious.

With regards to power, the speaker has excursion limits that mean that excess power gives no additional SPL. I can dump power into them and simply watch the amp power meters move into the 450-500 Watt territory for no appreciable increase in SPL over, say 150-200 Watts.

I am fed up with these power arguments. What say I make a video of the Accuphase power amp meters with an SPL meter in the room? Will that shut people up? I think it will

Actually I don't really, but I'll do it anyway (wink).

I have recently decorated the listening room and removed all the clutter on the side walls beyond the speakers. This has made the sweet spot much larger and there is far less variance in sound in general. Imaging is improved, too. The point is clean side walls appear to be a very good thing to have

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

Hi Grant, his main room is 40*18. Except that as he has flipping ceilings he can't spread tall speakers too wide as they would hit the ceiling at the top.

The 12 width smaller room is another one

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

microstrip said:
Can I ask you what Plinius? I have got an used SA250 MKiV for cheap for the summer months (in class AB, surely) but I now am trying to sell it - decent sound but almost 70kgs. My back still hurts after the last time I tried to move it ...

I don't know the model, but it was 130 W/channel, 240 into 4 ohm, so 480 bridged that I heard. Henk normally uses it for his bass panels on the grands but played it on duettas for demo

Zero000 · Aug 3, 2016

As a clue, watch this video taken before re-decorate and re-organise.

It is loudish in there - 85 DB peaks maybe? And look at the bottom scale of the power meters, which are set to peak reading.

You should be able to tell that the Interstella videos sound markedly better than dare I say nearly all if not all of the Apogee videos on YouTube (though even these don't sound great from a cheap camera mic). Though the first one is a tad bright, and there is an synth sound about halfway through the track that comes over a bit like battery acid, LOL (I mean the synth enhanced female "ahh" sound). Except when in the room, it doesn't sound like that. It sounds good

The first two are 80 Watt 211 tube amp, this one Accuphase M-60s whose actual measured delivery is way over 500 Watts into 4 Ohms.

spiritofmusic · Aug 3, 2016

You have that spot on Ked
I have the width and depth absolutely perfect for any big flagship speaker
But over my 18' width, the ceiling line slopes down from a midline apex maximum of 10', to 4' high side walls 18' apart
So speakers up to 5' high can be accommodated no problem
My Zu Definitions 4, to be released Zu Experiences, AG Trios...and Graz Duettas Signatures, all no issues ergonomically
But my 800 sq ft/5000 cub ft space according to Henk will be overwhelming for the Duettas even with uber powerful SS amps, let alone NAT SETs
So his recommendation is to go Divas, not FRs
Based mainly on the Divas getting very close to FR performance envelope, the Graz ribbons providing a "benign" 4 Ohms load across the board (whereas the FRs are 1.5 Ohms in the bass ribbons), similar sensitivity as the Duettas (the Graz ribbons 2-3dB higher than the original Apogees), and the performance promise of the Divas in the bass, slam and 'staging far in excess of the Duettas, esp in my room where I can get good space behind them, and plenty of space from them to the listening position

But I'm hampered by my eaves abutting the top outer corners of them if I place them any wider than 7' apart

One idea I have is to place them so the mids and treble ribbons are on the outsides of the speakers.

With the Divas placed 6.5' apart, this would mean centre-centre of these mids and treble ribbons would be 10-10.5' apart, and centre-centre of the bass ribbons would be 8.5' apart

And then we turn to amp demands
SORRY Justin LOL
But we have Henk saying NAT Transmitters in my room with the Divas would be no problem, everyone else 180 different opinion, Lissnr a bit perplexed by this

Zero000 · Aug 3, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
And then we turn to amp demands
SORRY Justin LOL
But we have Henk saying NAT Transmitters in my room with the Divas would be no problem, everyone else 180 different opinion, Lissnr a bit perplexed by this

Your room space keeps varying in size. Duettas will be screwed trying to drive large spaces. I agree with Henk. Divas play a lot louder. And Jon has some very good ideas on how to make them play louder than stock by a margin.

I wouldn't really underestimate Jon. He is very good. I believe the Interstellas are built better than Henks (sorry Henk

). The current mid range sound is of course alterable to taste. Other refurbs, I think you will find, are using the same assemblies, after all.

spiritofmusic · Aug 3, 2016

Ok Justin, Divas it is
Sorry if I've tripped up on describing my space
800 sq ft/5000 cub ft is pretty accurate

Ok, according to my plans, I really can't have Divas wider than 6.5'
This will leave a few inches from outer top corner to eaves, 3' at base to side walls, and any amount of space behind to front wall, and to listening position
7-7.5' between mids/treble ribbons, 10' between bass ribbons

What's your thoughts on siting Divas no wider than 6.5' apart?

Btw I get the impression from Jon he only refurbished Duettas, and doesn't touch Divas (or FRs/Grands for that matter)

Lissnr · Aug 3, 2016

OK guys...back in the loop...[mixing 2 rooms but]

got it now. I'll just watch and listen for now...

Zero000 · Aug 3, 2016

The room size has varied over time as you decided what to do in that new house, as I recall. Are you in it yet?

Er no... Jon will do Divas. He nearly did some "enhanced loudness capability" ones recently, but it fell through.

6.5 feet? Hm... lemme measure how far mine are apart now... I have moved them further apart now I have no side wall clutter in front of them, so I have them really close to the wall and it works well. It didn't before with the clutter in place.

spiritofmusic · Aug 3, 2016

Am I in it?
Er, no
Once we have a toilet that flushes, and hot water that runs
LOL X 1000
But my space is nearly ready
I'm concluding the space demands Divas not Duettas
But will max width of 6.5' prove too much of a compromise?

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