Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, fascinating
What is some of the reticence you have re the UK Graz Duettas restores you have heard as well?
What are Henk's and True Sound's doing that is superior?
In my proposed room I can't house 6'8" high FRs without restricting them to being only 6' max width
The Duettas on the other hand I can comfortably get 8' apart with no restriction on space to front wall or to listening position
Are you saying these Duettas are as good as their bigger siblings in mids and bass esp, just smaller in scale?
And would Nat Transmitters serve them well, 120W per channel in 750 sq ft space?

Duettas are not as good as FRs and Grands - but they have an amazing integration of bass and dynamics and slam that I can't get from other non-apogee speakers - trios do a fantastic job on bass. Btw, this week I also heard the Alexandria XLFs with Spectrals and various Magicos - that was more because I am now exploring SS amps or their high powered valve alternatives.

Duettas are easier to image in one plane because of their size, obviously - to do FRs and Grands, you need length to enjoy the slam and bass, and width to cohesively image them.

I don't know if NATs can drive them. The impedance is flat 4 ohms so that is easily manageable by NATs, whether 120w can create loudness in that space I do not know. Christoph seems to think it will. Get a back up amp like Aesthetix Atlas available cheap used and play both.

Justin's UK Duettas (the newer ones) are beautifully built and equally great on bass and slams, his mids don't involve me as much which could be his amps or his crossover. His room is also narrower.

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

Ked, there is no way of truly knowing whether the Nats would be sufficiently powerful
I'm made somewhat confident by the fact that a guy is using Transmitters on his Grands (albeit two pairs)
It just always seems that the Apogee guys are using amps of not less than 180W most of the time, incl Justin.
Lissnr's amps are 200W if I'm not mistaken
Magmas would be just as bulletproof
My new room 18' wide x 40' deep x 10' max at apex down to 4' high side walls, coincidentally will have the same square footage as my old room, but only two thirds the volume, and sloping eaves may help with reducing standing waves, and I will put some effort into treatments esp possible need behind the speakers on the front wall

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, there is no way of truly knowing whether the Nats would be sufficiently powerful
I'm made somewhat confident by the fact that a guy is using Transmitters on his Grands (albeit two pairs)
It just always seems that the Apogee guys are using amps of not less than 180W most of the time, incl Justin.
Lissnr's amps are 200W if I'm not mistaken
Magmas would be just as bulletproof
My new room 18' wide x 40' deep x 10' max at apex down to 4' high side walls, coincidentally will have the same square footage as my old room, but only two thirds the volume, and sloping eaves may help with reducing standing waves, and I will put some effort into treatments esp possible need behind the speakers on the front wall

Henk has diffusors on his front wall but advises sitting 5m from them to avoid comb filtering effect. You have sufficient width and depth to have them singing, imaging, slamming and decaying superbly.

There are 10 amps or more which can do the job.

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

Hmm, but I really want to keep that Nat magic
I know your argument is to ditch whatever doesn't work w/a pair of speakers rather than the other way around, and it's a very sound one
You've heard Apogees now on various occasions w/tube amps, do you feel a certain extra magic esp in those ribbons mids would draw you to running Duettas w/valvess?
I do wonder what Bill's AD integrated would sound like powering the Graz Duettas.

Should I be made more confident that an owner of Grands runs them w/Transmitters?

Hmm, and Magmas w/Duettas???!!!

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Hmm, but I really want to keep that Nat magic
I know your argument is to ditch whatever doesn't work w/a pair of speakers rather than the other way around, and it's a very sound one
You've heard Apogees now on various occasions w/tube amps, do you feel a certain extra magic esp in those ribbons mids would draw you to running Duettas w/valvess?
I do wonder what Bill's AD integrated would sound like powering the Graz Duettas.

Should I be made more confident that an owner of Grands runs them w/Transmitters?

Hmm, and Magmas w/Duettas???!!!

I am sure NATs will work - I don't know if the volume levels will be sufficient for your size. The NAT owner has a much smaller room than you do. Bill's AD will drive it.

I don't think I can compare. I felt a lot of magic with Henk's as well, now they were in much bigger rooms, and with relatively low end amps like Plinius and the FR was with Project Sphinx. The TRL is a very good amp, and in a much smaller room, different crossover components. I enjoyed both. I now also enjoy flowing, liquid, full bodied class A sound with a nice mid bass that comes from Vitus and Bridged Luxmans. Bill's AD and Spectrals are more of the cleaner, transparent sound, very fast. I think here it's more about preferences than better. I will just do a merry go round of amps to see which I prefer without spending too much, and then if I am ready jump to a bigger room with FR and 2 of those amps. And sell tickets to see my orchestra.

Ron Resnick · Aug 2, 2016

Thank you, Kedar, for that very interesting report. I am glad you have some closure on your search!

I have a couple of questions:

There is no “bass from the woofer below, violins from above” kind of thing.

Doesn't every line source solve this particular issue, whether Magnepan, Analysis Audio, Apogee, etc. (and cones in boxes in M-T-M configurations as well)?

What the apogees do very well, is that they just layer behind them like a concert stage, with the stage like a rectangle in front of you and the music layered behind...and the sound comes out as one, yet separated. I have not heard any other speaker do that.

I am having a little trouble following you here. I would have thought every good line source does this too. In what ways did the Apogees you have heard differ in this respect from, again, Magnepan, Analysis Audio, etc.?

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you, Kedar, for that very interesting report. I am glad you have some closure on your search!

I have a couple of questions:

There is no “bass from the woofer below, violins from above” kind of thing.

Doesn't every line source solve this particular issue, whether Magnepan, Analysis Audio, Apogee, etc. (and cones in boxes in M-T-M configurations as well)?

What the apogees do very well, is that they just layer behind them like a concert stage, with the stage like a rectangle in front of you and the music layered behind...and the sound comes out as one, yet separated. I have not heard any other speaker do that.

I am having a little trouble following you here. I would have thought every good line source does this too. In what ways did the Apogees you have heard differ in this respect from, again, Magnepan, Analysis Audio, etc.?

Line source can solve that issue, but at a cost. Some line sources can have their own crossover issues, others can have less bass, which is why despite the soundstage and midrange, some might prefer a cone or a trio with a bass horn for better bass. But the thing with Apogees is their bass is better, and slam is better, and everything moves as one. There is a big difference, by the way, between the bass panel of Analysis, Maggies, and Apogees. Analysis is Mylar for the bass panel, for example. Their magnets are different, and the way they are clamped and suspended are different. There are lots of discussion on this on other forums. Analysis are pretty well integrated too. Just that their bass, while it is nice to listen to, will be better with Apogees and some cones.

Very tough to answer your second question, as Analysis does it very well too. I just preferred it on Apogees - I find both speakers a bit more vinyl to conal digital, let's say Apogee is more R2R.

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

I have been exchanging some PMs on the shark over the last few weeks with a guy some of you might know - A.Wayne, a veteran who used to have the original Aps and then was a speaker designer, also now designing his own ribbon cone hybrid speaker, a bit like the Genesis 1.

His advise has been -

Regarding Class A: In case you were not aware you half your class-A power with every halfing of load , so 80 watt class a (a lot) at 8 ohm before transitioning to class-B is only 10 Watts Class-A at 1 ohm...

if you listen to a lot of soft quite passages then you will prefer the higher class-A amplifiers , if loud power passages then the more B the better, this is why most get on that amp merry go round until they get the amp that does it all for their setup ....

For SS amps: Of course Duettas are an easier load , you will still need 400 per ch at 4 ohm , the more, the better the dynamics and the biggest power cord you can fit and good receptacles. Many under power ribbons and dont understand how sensitive the amp PSU gets to its supply when faced with a continuous 4 ohm load and below , dynamic speakers swing impedance based on load , its never a constant , unlike low-Z ribbons..

When I said one choice was Ayon Orthos, 300w in triode and 400 in Pentode, his advise was:

A 400 watt tooby is good power , tube clipping charateristics allows you to use all of the watts , SS is at its best at 33% of its clipping power , Hence the common comment about low wattage tubes play as loud as twice the power SS .

IMO , dynamic clipping and recovery Characteristics of amplifiers is one of the main(subconsciously ) metrics used by audiophiles when selecting their amplfier, ribbons are less sensitive to amp ringing and hardness due to its lower BL spread out over a larger area vs Dynamic speakers.

Of course, the TRL Dude and NATs are driving some (there is another owner of Full Ranges in the US with the NAT, I heard, and Gallant Diva drives his FRs with the TRL too).

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

His words are leaving me as confused as ever
DDK has always contended tubes just can't bring out the best in Apogees, and this is pretty much what can be concluded from his words
Is there wishful thinking in expecting Apogees to be PROPERLY supplied even by NAT Transmitters at 120W?

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
His words are leaving me as confused as ever
DDK has always contended tubes just can't bring out the best in Apogees, and this is pretty much what can be concluded from his words
Is there wishful thinking in expecting Apogees to be PROPERLY supplied even by NAT Transmitters at 120W?

You are confused because this thread is about Apogees, not about the NATs

It is simple Marc. One of the reasons I quoted him is "ribbons are less sensitive to amp ringing and hardness due to its lower BL spread out over a larger area vs Dynamic speakers."

I find ribbons are inherently such that I can live with an SS amp on them. They have tone, harmonics, and are pleasant. And you can chance them with tubes like TRL and Ayon Orthos

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

Sure Ked
NAT threads don't last very long so I'm extending their life on the back of this one LOL
Life would truly be simple (?) if one relented to the physics of the situation and just powered Apogees with SS
But as you can see there are aficionados who still try to make Apogees work with NAT and TRL

You're an opinionated fellow (didn't you know?), is it your instinct that Apogees really can be served by powerful, but not uber powerful, tubes like NATs?

Or is your curiosity on this area sort of over because there are enough SS amps that can sound as warm, creamy and textured as tubes with Apogees, and Apogees are unique in allowing the right synergy with SS to be quasi-tube like?

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Sure Ked
NAT threads don't last very long so I'm extending their life on the back of this one LOL
Life would truly be simple (?) if one relented to the physics of the situation and just powered Apogees with SS
But as you can see there are aficionados who still try to make Apogees work with NAT and TRL

You're an opinionated fellow (didn't you know?), is it your instinct that Apogees really can be served by powerful, but not uber powerful, tubes like NATs?

Or is your curiosity on this area sort of over because there are enough SS amps that can sound as warm, creamy and textured as tubes with Apogees, and Apogees are unique in allowing the right synergy with SS to be quasi-tube like?

I am not opinionated until I do my research. You won't get any opinions on me on analog, for example. Still learning. Amps, yes, I need to do that merry go round, and I have always been quite ok with various amps on a speaker as long as the wrong one is kept out. Btw, being valve only, especially NAT only, is opinionated.

If I was opinionated, I wouldn't have changed my opinions on Logans, various horns, Analysis, and even Apogees, which I was meh about first.

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

Well my journey to NATs was via Roksan and Bladelius SS, Hovland tubes/SS combination, Audion all tubes and now NATs all tubes
Just a destination point I'm at that feels very natural and an end point sound
Yes, that makes me opinionated LOL
There has been no need for me to consider moving on from NATs with my Zus or switch to horns
But Appgees may be a very different question

microstrip · Aug 2, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
(...) NAT threads don't last very long so I'm extending their life on the back of this one LOL (...)

Can you give us an idea of the prices of NAT amplifiers and line stages?

spiritofmusic · Aug 2, 2016

Micro
NAT don't have any profile in the US
In the UK, Symmetrical and Magnetostat line stages £8k and £13k
Phono stage £6k
SE2SE, Transmitter and Magma power amps £10k, £18k and £30k plus
Approx pricing

Ron Resnick · Aug 3, 2016

Does anyone have any experience driving Apogee speakers (originals or re-builds) with the bigger VTL amplifiers? I would think that 350 watts or more of VTL would be able to drive Duettas and Divas and even Full Ranges, but I am only guessing.

ddk · Aug 3, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
Does anyone have any experience driving Apogee speakers (originals or re-builds) with the bigger VTL amplifiers? I would think that 350 watts or more of VTL would be able to drive Duettas and Divas and even Full Ranges, but I am only guessing.

I was biamping Divas with two pairs of VTL Ichibans and later with two pairs of Manley Ref 350s, passable but not really enough IMO.

david

Ron Resnick · Aug 3, 2016

Thank you, David.

If two pairs of Manley Ref 350s are only passable, that says something.

Do you think the problem was lack of current? Do you think the MB-750s in tetrode mode (about 700 watts) would have been more than "passable"?

Ron Resnick · Aug 3, 2016

Kedar, let me try to make progress on Marc's several tube-related questions with a chart-type request.

In your experience, Kedar, which Apogee speakers -- separating out stock Apogee speakers and Graz-ribboned re-builds (by any of the re-builders) -- worked very well with which tube amplifiers? And I appreciate that you have not auditioned each of these combinations on the chart. But please try to fill in as many boxes as you can with what you have heard.

Which tube amps worked very well with stock Duettas? Graz re-ribboned Duettas?

Which tube amps worked very well with stock Divas? Graz re-ribboned Divas?

Which tube amps worked very well with stock Full Ranges? Graz re-ribboned Full Ranges?

Thank you!

bonzo75 · Aug 3, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
Does anyone have any experience driving Apogee speakers (originals or re-builds) with the bigger VTL amplifiers? I would think that 350 watts or more of VTL would be able to drive Duettas and Divas and even Full Ranges, but I am only guessing.

Rebuilds will be different from originals, with Gallant Diva driving his FRs with TRL, Rich with Audio Research, and some other guy in the US with NATs. I have no idea of how that works though - in Lissnr's system it was perfect. We, incidentally, compared it to a SS amp called Samson by the same designer, to see if we had lost out anything with the TRL valves, and the valves were better (that does not mean valves will always be better against good SS amps, but at least with the Samson they gave up nothing and won). VTL will be more powerful than the TRL, so with power you should have no issues, but no idea of the control at 4ohms and 2ohms and the current. Also, from what I hear, VTL has changed over the years to a more hybrid like sound.

In fact, I might consider Ayon Orthos with 300 in triode and 400 in pentode.

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