How much of burn-in/ break-in (in hours) is objective vs. getting used to sound?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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I could never understand the subject of break in or burn in. I have experienced break in with speakers, but there was actual, physical motion of drivers involved. And it took under 200 hours.

Does break in actually happen and how long does it take with:

- electrolytic capacitors in amps?

- turntables?

- DACs?

- Transports?

- Cables? this should be among the easiest things to verify

Or do we just get acclimated to a new and different sonic signature over several hundred hours?

Do brands that market themselves from an "engineering" positioning, such as Sanders amps, Spectral, etc., believe in break-in?
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Anything with teflon capacitors.

Going assumption for my pre. 300 - 500 hours.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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I could never understand the subject of break in or burn in. I have experienced break in with speakers, but there was actual, physical motion of drivers involved. And it took under 200 hours.

Does break in actually happen and how long does it take with:

- electrolytic capacitors in amps?

- turntables?

- DACs?

- Transports?

- Cables? this should be among the easiest things to verify

Or do we just get acclimated to a new and different sonic signature over several hundred hours?

Do brands that market themselves from an "engineering" positioning, such as Sanders amps, Spectral, etc., believe in break-in?

An electrical burn-in actually occurs and the associated audible transformation can occur in a single moment-in-time or it can over the course of several distinctly audible bumps. The number of distinct audible gains is ultimately determined by how dedicated the listener is. If the listener ever leaves the room, there could always be 1 or a series of audible improvements but when the listener returns to the listening room, he can only acknowledge 1 distinct audible improvement.

Electrical burn-in observation depends primarily on one's hearing, one's interpretive abilities, the quality of the component burning-in, and how well-thought-out the overall playback system is generally determines the significance of the bump. A significant shortcoming in any one of these sectors can render a burn-in process inaudible.

Are audible distinctions before and after burn-in real or imaginary? Assuming all the aforementioned areas are up to snuff, electrical burn-in is real enough that its transformation is most always predictable. For example. Simple electrical parts like fuses, inlets, outlets, connectors, and plugs in my experience most always take roughly 53 hours to fully burn-in, give or take 1 hour.

The more conduits, the more lengthy the conduits, and/or the more complex the product the longer the burn-in process. For example. A one meter pair of interconnects is generally 5 full days of burn-in. A 2-meter pair of speaker cables, roughly 7 days. A power cable, roughly 5 full days. A component roughly 150 - 200 hours with exceptions. I had one amp that took over 500 hours, a CD player - 275 hours.

I assume anything that passes current of any strength will go thru a burn-in process of some sort. For me, replacing a single fuse I'd be pretty lucky if I could hear any audible difference. But if all the fuses everywhere were upgraded at the same time to multiply the burn-in impact, I most likely would hear a nice little improvement.

Should any of these electrical parts or components be cryo-treated, its burn-in process must start over again from scratch since the conductive materials are altered and returned to an like new or unused state.

The kissing cousin of electrical burn-in is mechanical settling-in and there are some surprising similarities between the two processes. Since mechanical energy and electrical energy are both of the same family i.e. vibrations, a few even speculate that in the end there is no such thing as real electrical burn-in as it's just another flavor of mechanical settling-in. Especially since electrical conduit vibrates when current is passing thru it.

There exists at least one distinct difference between electrical burn-in and mechanical settling-in processes. Once an electrical object is burned in, it stays burned in and if cold for a time only needs minutes, a few hours, or perhaps a day to perform at its optimal once again. Not so with mechanical settling in which has no settling-in memory. If an object is moved at all, it must go thru the entire settling in process all over again. But then again, physically moving an object in any direction is like unto an electrical object just coming back from being cryo-treated in a like new or unused state. Likewise, the mechanical conduits between two normally disparate objects, with every physical movement of one or both objects, the new mechanical conduit is back to a like new or unused state. Even if that movement is 1/64th of 1 inch.

Note there is little to no hope for any mechanical settling-in benefits if vibration isolation is the preferred methodology. Internally, there could be some settling in but vibration isolation breaks the mechanical conduit so that vibrational energy remains trapped within and must fully dissipate or release its energy somewhere within the object. IOW, if the vibration isolationist did his job, it's near impossible for the mechanical energy to travel between two disparate objects, hence there's nothing to settle in.
 

BlueFox

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Nov 8, 2013
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I recently remodeled my house and had my stereo disassembled for about 3 months. Before I shut it down, I was very happy with its sound. When I put it back together it was harsh and grating on the ears. The HT stereo was better. Anyway, after a couple of weeks it has resettled in, the gear has meshed with the power cords, and now it is so smooth and fine I have a hard time leaving it.
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Are audible distinctions before and after burn-in real or imaginary? plugs in my experience most always take roughly 53 hours to fully burn-in, give or take 1 hour.

A one meter pair of interconnects is generally 5 full days of burn-in. A 2-meter pair of speaker cables, roughly 7 days. A power cable, roughly 5 full days. A component roughly 150 - 200 hours with exceptions. I had one amp that took over 500 hours, a CD player - 275 hours.

Stehno,

I do believe in burn in. Having said that, what specifically do you hear (or measure) to determine the times cited above?

Also, do you use a "burn in" disc during the process?

Best.
 

jeromelang

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Dec 26, 2011
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Optical discs need to be 'burnt in' too...

It's a nice problem to have.
 

JackD201

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I've never bought into the getting used to it theory. In my book sucks just sucks and just sucks more the longer you listen to it.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Stehno,

I do believe in burn in. Having said that, what specifically do you hear (or measure) to determine the times cited above?

Also, do you use a "burn in" disc during the process?

Best.

Since electrical burn-in (and mechanical settling-in) is a universal thing, the resulting sonic benefits are generally universal across the frequency spectrum and improve all audio characteristics. If I were to burn-in say all plugs and IEC inlets at the same time, I'd make it a point to be around during the 52 - 53 hour mark to witness the transformation and for this smaller level of change the first thing that always comes to mind is an opening up sensation. Kinda' like a few moments earlier the sound may have seemed darker, more compressed / restricted, less detailed, more poorly defined, less lively, etc. and in comparison it has now opened up a little or fairly significantly depending on the complexity of the object being burned in.

I own an Esoteric burn-in disc and I've tried a few others and will sometimes use it rather than music. Some people swear by these burn-in disc and though a few times I'd swear they may be of benefit, since it's not always and hence not predictable, ultimately I don't put much weight into them. When burning something it, I think the most important aspect is to ensure that an electrical signal is constantly going thru it and I don't think the electrical object cares much what genre its processing.

As for measuring, I never measure and I seriously doubt anybody who loves to measure has ever captured a burn-in transformation or differences via the measuring instrument. To the contrary, of those who love to measure and who also believe burn-in is real I've only heard them say their sensitive measuring instruments are unable to capture any difference. Which does not surprise me and if anything confirms my stance that measuring collective wholes is of little to no value.
 
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KeithR

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One of the biggest myths in audio imo. And burn in is never a negative for folks.

I just "burned in" new speakers and can't say they changed much after a couple days. My speaker designer says 200 fyi

Guess I'm with Jack.
 
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Folsom

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I've heard it way too many times to deny it. Why? How? Measurements? I only have speculations. But it is clearly happening.

At least the mystery provides us with entertainment of those whom will push their ego to heights far above believing in the occurrence.

I'd like to mention that measurements aren't often done well for trying to find this phenomenon. Typically only the device changed is measured, when the reality is perhaps it's the other devices responding differently in whole or part.
 

thedudeabides

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I think what Jack D. is saying is plug "it" in, whatever "it" is, and what you initially hear is what you get.

I would respectfully disagree and this approach is not consistent with my personal experiences.

Others will argue that you simply adapt to the sound over time.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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One of the biggest myths in audio imo. And burn in is never a negative for folks.

I just "burned in" new speakers and can't say they changed much after a couple days. My speaker designer says 200 fyi

Guess I'm with Jack.

Regrettably, you are far from alone in your thoughts.

Did you happen to notice my qualifiers mentioned earlier?

"Electrical burn-in observation depends primarily on one's hearing, one's interpretive abilities, the quality of the component burning-in, and how well-thought-out the overall playback system is generally determines the significance of the bump. A significant shortcoming in any one of these sectors can render a burn-in process inaudible."

Is it at all possible that any combination of the above might apply to you and/or your system? Or do you suppose only those in other galaxies might encounter such shortcomings?

And yes, every speaker goes thru an electrical burn-in process too. Have you ever heard of components / systems sounding better after 15 minutes or maybe an hour or so of switching to on and some warmup time before sounding their best? This is a variation of a mini-burn-in process. And because of a speaker's moving parts, there's a mechanical "break-in" process too. Ever hear of an engine break-in period?

I once exhibited at an audio show in January and the speaker loaners didn't arrive until the day before the show. They were already well-burned in - broken in but because of the cold trip, they took nearly 24 hours of continuous play time before sounding musical. Until then, they sounded like crap and I thought I chose the wrong speakers for my exhibit.

I'm pretty confident these electrical burn-in processes and mechanical break-in and settling-in processes have everything to do with improved efficiencies and lowered resistance. Which IMO is really what it's all about if one's focus is performance.

 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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I've never bought into the getting used to it theory. In my book sucks just sucks and just sucks more the longer you listen to it.

I like that .. sucks more indeed :D
rotflmao

I take it you wouldn't wait 600 hours for a famous preamp to stop the sucking ? ;)
 

JackD201

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I think what Jack D. is saying is plug "it" in, whatever "it" is, and what you initially hear is what you get.

I would respectfully disagree and this approach is not consistent with my personal experiences.

Others will argue that you simply adapt to the sound over time.

Oh break in is real what I don't subscribe to is that you just get used to something that sucks until you like it. As a dealer I have burned in and out of the box units side by side for delivery inspection. I thought teflon caps were a pain in the ass but silk caps take even longer.
 

microstrip

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IMHO burn-in is real. There are scientific reasons why semiconductors, tubes or some passives change their electrical behavior along the first hundreds of hours of use. However as thresholds of audibility of the small differences are still being debated without any agreement between audiophiles we can not correlate the effects of burn-in with sound quality.

Any one wanting to read interesting debates about burn-in can just google "John Curl" and "burn-in". Using his wise words " Burn-in of audio electronics is based on physics, rather than engineering.
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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I could never understand the subject of break in or burn in. I have experienced break in with speakers, but there was actual, physical motion of drivers involved. And it took under 200 hours.

Does break in actually happen and how long does it take with:

- electrolytic capacitors in amps?

- turntables?

- DACs?

- Transports?

- Cables? this should be among the easiest things to verify

Or do we just get acclimated to a new and different sonic signature over several hundred hours?

Do brands that market themselves from an "engineering" positioning, such as Sanders amps, Spectral, etc., believe in break-in?

I think these are very interesting questions, caesar.
 

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
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IMHO burn-in is real.... However as thresholds of audibility of the small differences are still being debated without any agreement between audiophiles we can not correlate the effects of burn-in with sound quality.
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Small audible differences? Though there certainly are small audible differences after burning in some cables or component I would hardly call ALL of them small.

Both cables and components can go from a non-musical sub-par sound to quite a musical performance level after burn-in. In fact, the performance gains of most burn-ins I've experience are more on par with a significant product upgrade (or better) than a small audible difference. But again, certainly not in every case for every cable or component.
 

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