Police Use of Force: A Critic tries it out

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
46
1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
There are many of these videos out there, and I thought it would be interesting to watch how one critic of police use-of-force fares when undergoing training scenarios:


Lee
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
The only way for anyone to understand how fast things can go south on the street is to have been in that situation, unarmed doesn't mean harmless! These guys just got a basic Sim training one attacker and he stopped after one shot yet they still looked like that they were ready to pee their pants. Wonder how long they would have lasted in a multi attacker scenario or one from the ground, then they'll understand why no one wants to end up there, armed or unarmed!

david
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,024
1,490
520
Eastern WA
There's times when it's the only option really. However maybe tasers mounted under the barrel would be good. Yes people need to be compliant but just because they're in a heated moment doesn't mean they're capable of killing or maiming so they need to die. Plus it cost an awful lot of money to shoot someone, call ambulance, prove it was the correct call, pay for bills etc.

I've seen videos where I think the right call was made, but people are up in arms about it. Sometimes the police could have de-escalted instead of their approach. Many times they are using heavy force against minors and such that are upset but clearly unarmed and not a threat. Really though the cops are not judge dread, so they need to solve the situation in non-violent ways, and then non-lethal, before lethal whenever possible. Unfortunately there's also a rash of use in tasers on children and such (can be lethal).

I wouldn't let a citizen kill me but I don't feel I'd be any benefit to the public if all I could do is go around looking for potentially fatal confrontation. The middle ground needs investment. I feel if I care about the public I should be willing to exercise a little vulnerability to share I care enough to say let a child harmlessly hit me a few times while I subdue them, or just be willing to physically engage when appropriate instead of shooting anything that gets near me.
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
46
1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
Unless one has personally participated in some force-on-force training, it is extremely hard to understand the difficulty of handling these situations. Many of these scenarios take place in low-light environments. Many take place inside structures where ambush is highly probable and response time is measured in tenths of a second.

There is no perfect answer. The men and women of law enforcement routinely place their lives in jeopardy to protect our well-being. If something bad occurs to any of us (or our families, etc), they are the folks we are praying show up quickly.

Lee
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Some observations:

1. A police officer is always better prepared with a partner, never alone.

2. The other police officer (his partner) would be in better position from another angle, like approaching a suspect in his car; one from the driver side, and the other from the rear passenger side, in case one has to shoot an armed suspect with a pointing gun, and better not have the other officer in the path, not straight across @ 180°.

3. An unarmed suspect but a large fellow and charging towards you (like in that video); you fear that he can take your gun, so your reaction goes accordingly (I'm sure there is some of that, because I put myself in the police officer's shoes). I would like to see police officer's guns that can only be activated from hand-print, or voice recognition (very accurate high tech), so that no one else can shoot with it. That, would be a tremendous help, I think. The fear factor would diminish.

4. When the partner (officer) positioned himself strategically before any frontal confrontation from the first officer, those two set of eyes are much more powerful in defense, etc.

5. When the big fellow is on the ground, and resisting, the second officer comes into play with very fast handcuff, a new high tech type that when touching an arm it automatically wrap around the suspect's arm, and then proceed the same with the second arm.

I understand how quick a situation can develop, but those few observations and suggestions above could be useful to develop and test.
If a suspect is armed, and pointing @ you before you can point @ him, your partner is the one holding that balance.
If pointing to an armed suspect first, and the suspect raise his gun, then self-defense.
If the suspect is armed with a knife and charging, aim @ the knee caps, then @ the hand holding the knife.

No matter the situations, try to save lives first, not only yours but the suspect too, who might be drunk, stoned, or mentally handicapped.
Shoot to kill only if there are no other alternatives.
Also, the better in shape police officers are, and with the best physical training; that helps too, against bikers who are in good shape too, and black belts fellows.

I know I know, it's not easy (easier said than done); and depending of where you are confronting suspects. I can post thousands of videos where police officers are involved with suspects and with guns, rifles, AK47, any gun's models, baseball bats, cars, etc., and you just can't generalize as each situation has some unique aspects and no one act and react the exact same.

If performing police duties in tough neighborhoods, wear bullet proof vests. That would help too.

This is an important subject we are talking about here, in particular in America and with all the shootings and the black and white confrontations.
I don't know the recipes, I don't know how to end this craziness and fear in America. It starts @ people first, only them decide for peace or for violence.
Automatic guns are for war, or special commandos from the SWAT team, not in kids hands and avail @ your local Walmart stores.

Big guys of 6.5 feet tall and weighting 270 pounds, and if they want to play killing games aim @ their knee caps; break them real good.
Teach police officers where to shoot best and without killing if possible. I've seen too many videos where police officers lost control from fear, and they simply shoot to kill...the heart, the neck, the head, the guts (bellies).

And if some people want to be bullies, rapists, killers, bank robbers, hurting others physically, mentally, in real life, on the internet, hackers, criminals who want your info, credit cards numbers, your address, your identity...hire more smart cops and go after them...go get them Batman.
Think smart, work with everyone, citizens to restore peace in your neighborhood, in your own turf.

And Go Help Funds for the police so that they can invest money with better tools to fight crime, including high tech cameras and hi-tek guns (hand-print).
Being a police officer is one of the highest job in America; so provide them with the best tools and best training.
Give them a raise too, better salaries. And screen them, every year or two, to make sure they are the best reliability.

Brief, more money is needed in America for police officers, in order to fight crime and violence better. ...And respect for them, for the law, and obey them when they talk to you.
And police officers should never lose their cool, by yelling, by doing illegal arrests. ...And always work with a partner, and ask for back up quick when second thought cross your mind. Don't take charge on your own.

That's it...for now. And thank you Lee for starting this thread.

Cheers,
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,024
1,490
520
Eastern WA
Unless one has personally participated in some force-on-force training, it is extremely hard to understand the difficulty of handling these situations. Many of these scenarios take place in low-light environments. Many take place inside structures where ambush is highly probable and response time is measured in tenths of a second.

There is no perfect answer. The men and women of law enforcement routinely place their lives in jeopardy to protect our well-being. If something bad occurs to any of us (or our families, etc), they are the folks we are praying show up quickly.

Lee

Well, you can't use a taser from a very big distance, so that's ruled out at times. Low visibility can be a problem. In general however a taser works faster than a bullet unless it's to the brain. As seen in other circumstances sometimes the bullet doesn't do anything. There's nothing easy about it all, however there's been so many poorly handled scenarios too... like some dude shopping in WalMart got shot because someone called and said he was waving a gun around, when in fact all he had was a toy that didn't resemble any real firearm. He wasn't even given the option for compliance. This was in a well lit area, high visibility. It's a problem when they shoot first, ask questions later. Obviously in the videos the pastor never did that, but it happens IRL.

A partner on hand sure is a good call...
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
46
1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
I'll address a few points.

The "shoot-to-wound" philosophy goes back a long time. Taking anyone's life is undesirable. Unfortunately, shooting to STOP an attacker has proven to be the only means to end a deadly threat. In the 1970's, Dennis Tueller wrote a famous study on the time/distance relationships involved as an attacker charges you. A healthy male can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Most officers cannot draw their firearm and shoot in that amount of time. So, you have an attacker (they armed him with a training knife for the drills) who can kill you before you can react. The 21 feet means that an attacker can present a deadly threat whenever you are in the same room together. We must also remember that handgun ammunition is not a guaranteed "stopper". Many individuals continue to function for long enough to kill you. We must also consider the under-stress marksmanship of the officer. Attempting to shoot a fast-moving target the size of a tennis ball (kneecap) is an EXTREMELY difficult task. Even a solid hit to the kneecap may not stop a drug-fueled attacker from stabbing/clubbing you to death. Shooting to center mass, the largest & slowest-moving portion of an attacker, has universally been accepted as the only means to have acceptable results in stopping deadly threats to officers. Center mass shooting presents a larger target that has less erratic movement. Where missing means you will die, would you prefer a target that you have a much better chance if hitting?

It is departmental policy for uniformed officers to wear body armor while on duty. However, many bulletproof vests do not protect against knife attacks: the contact area if the knife's tip (like a hypodermic needle) is so small in relation to the force provided that it can penetrate the vest. Prison corrections officers wear special stab-resistant vests since bladed weapons are what they need protection against.

Tasers are tools with limited usefulness. Most department stipulate that when attempting to resolve a situation with a Taser, a second officer must be present and have their firearm out as backup. Civilian tasers have an effective range of 15 feet, while police versions can reach 40 ft. The twin probes are deployed at an 8 degree angle, one of the reasons that distances are limited for taser use. The probes must successfully pierce the subject's skin, must provide a current travel path (distance between probes) within functional specification, and must remain attached during activation of the device. If the probes are too close together, insufficient current is introduced to the subject, as it prefers to "jump"'directly to the second probe rather than dispersing throughout the subject's body. So, tasers deployed when the subject is too close do not work reliably. Some models can be "pressure-deployed", meaning that you may push the non-launched probes directly against the subject's body (like a stun gun). Allowing a threatening subject ( the reason use-of-force is indicated) to come within arms' length is a deadly threat to the officer. Tasers, when fired, do not always achieve contact successfully. Thick clothing (a recent taser failure against a Carharrt work coat was in the news) can prevent good contact. Deploying the probes, only to have one probe go between the legs or under the armpit of the subject, is another cause of failure. I've seen estimates of taser effectiveness during field use at approximately 50%. The time/distance relationships previously mentioned also play against emergent use of tasers. Subjects have been known to rip the electrodes off before being incapacitated.

Once again, we arrive at the point where a lack of personal, real experience with the subject at hand produces hypothetical solutions to situations that have been carefully studied. A non-pilot could never tell a Fighter Weapons School pilot how to control his aircraft, and the same situation is at work here. The elements of real-life deadly force confrontations cannot be successfully "arm-chaired" to concoct field procedures.

I am unfortunately at the point where I now understand that all of these threads are presented to an audience who understandably has no context with the material. I'll leave this thread open for a short time to address any further questions about its contents, then close it.

Lee
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Lee,

Maybe you should post some videos of actual violent prison fights or a gang attack on the street. This way you'd remove any anti-police bias, delusion that one is dealing with rational human beings with less than lethal intent and the reality of how fast things happen. Unfortunately most so called self defense courses still treat SD like some kind of sport activity with a referee and one on one match, reaction in place of action as if you get a 2nd chance on the street. Some of the worst I've seen are MMA classes teaching people complicated takedown and hold down technics for self defense. Don't need to tell you that firearms are another subject on their own and until one has actually had proper force on force training won't understand how one can miss from a few feet and how inconsistent a weapon a pistol is. Remember this;


david

I'll address a few points.

The "shoot-to-wound" philosophy goes back a long time. Taking anyone's life is undesirable. Unfortunately, shooting to STOP an attacker has proven to be the only means to end a deadly threat. In the 1970's, Dennis Tueller wrote a famous study on the time/distance relationships involved as an attacker charges you. A healthy male can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Most officers cannot draw their firearm and shoot in that amount of time. So, you have an attacker (they armed him with a training knife for the drills) who can kill you before you can react. The 21 feet means that an attacker can present a deadly threat whenever you are in the same room together. We must also remember that handgun ammunition is not a guaranteed "stopper". Many individuals continue to function for long enough to kill you. We must also consider the under-stress marksmanship of the officer. Attempting to shoot a fast-moving target the size of a tennis ball (kneecap) is an EXTREMELY difficult task. Even a solid hit to the kneecap may not stop a drug-fueled attacker from stabbing/clubbing you to death. Shooting to center mass, the largest & slowest-moving portion of an attacker, has universally been accepted as the only means to have acceptable results in stopping deadly threats to officers. Center mass shooting presents a larger target that has less erratic movement. Where missing means you will die, would you prefer a target that you have a much better chance if hitting?

It is departmental policy for uniformed officers to wear body armor while on duty. However, many bulletproof vests do not protect against knife attacks: the contact area if the knife's tip (like a hypodermic needle) is so small in relation to the force provided that it can penetrate the vest. Prison corrections officers wear special stab-resistant vests since bladed weapons are what they need protection against.

Tasers are tools with limited usefulness. Most department stipulate that when attempting to resolve a situation with a Taser, a second officer must be present and have their firearm out as backup. Civilian tasers have an effective range of 15 feet, while police versions can reach 40 ft. The twin probes are deployed at an 8 degree angle, one of the reasons that distances are limited for taser use. The probes must successfully pierce the subject's skin, must provide a current travel path (distance between probes) within functional specification, and must remain attached during activation of the device. If the probes are too close together, insufficient current is introduced to the subject, as it prefers to "jump"'directly to the second probe rather than dispersing throughout the subject's body. So, tasers deployed when the subject is too close do not work reliably. Some models can be "pressure-deployed", meaning that you may push the non-launched probes directly against the subject's body (like a stun gun). Allowing a threatening subject ( the reason use-of-force is indicated) to come within arms' length is a deadly threat to the officer. Tasers, when fired, do not always achieve contact successfully. Thick clothing (a recent taser failure against a Carharrt work coat was in the news) can prevent good contact. Deploying the probes, only to have one probe go between the legs or under the armpit of the subject, is another cause of failure. I've seen estimates of taser effectiveness during field use at approximately 50%. The time/distance relationships previously mentioned also play against emergent use of tasers. Subjects have been known to rip the electrodes off before being incapacitated.

Once again, we arrive at the point where a lack of personal, real experience with the subject at hand produces hypothetical solutions to situations that have been carefully studied. A non-pilot could never tell a Fighter Weapons School pilot how to control his aircraft, and the same situation is at work here. The elements of real-life deadly force confrontations cannot be successfully "arm-chaired" to concoct field procedures.

I am unfortunately at the point where I now understand that all of these threads are presented to an audience who understandably has no context with the material. I'll leave this thread open for a short time to address any further questions about its contents, then close it.

Lee
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Good morning Lee,

I've just read your above post earlier this morning, and now I am going to share my viewpoint.
I do understand that you are an expert in your field (self defense and how to use force in special situations to save your own life and the lives of innocent bystanders or partners or people being captive), and it's your job. I certainly learned from reading your posts. But if you are going to close all threads in your area of expertise how can we have some discussions of explorations on higher learning? Life is a day to day apprentissage on all matters of defense and situations of life threatening and how to prevent those situations and how to react best.

I agree with you that no one can tell an expert how to do his job.


Only the experts know how to act and react from real life experience. I have been a forester for the main part of my life, and an artist. And I had young guys telling me how to do my job after they have been there for the first year in their life (only 18-years old, when I was 45 and doing it for already 25 years). I listened to what the kid have to say and complied with his new teaching method; he was the boss, not me (I was just an expert worker doing this for a long time).
I'm here to learn and share with an open mind, with a fresh perspective, with analysis and introspection of new methods that can be better applied and learned.
That's what forum's discussions are about, @ least that's what I thought.

We live in a society where the strong and powerful has control over the weak and less capable. Criminals use guns and knives and force to control the defenseless. Their goals are raping, robbing, money, drugs, control, etc. The police officers are helping us to get rid of them sick individuals. And I'm sure a lot of people would say; aim for the head first. I believe this is the main overall attitude in America where violence is @ its extreme.

Anyway, if you don't accept other's suggestions and discussions in your area of expertise, I am having a tough time to understand my role in an open public forum.
If you write a book, we will discuss your book's content. That's the social way, expert or not.
I can post several videos where kids know the law better than police officers. There is a lack of education and law applications from many law officers, police, lawyers, prosecutors, judges. It's only one aspect, there are others on self defense. I am learning from you about taser guns, and now you are saying that you're going to close this thread.
You made a good point that it's better to shoot @ a larger body mass than a kneecap. I totally agree. Each situation is different and you cannot apply the same rules to all, because you might kill the real criminals, excellent, but you might also kill non-criminals (all in the mind and not easy to determine, only when it's too late).
Killing to protect yourself is the way of life in America; everyone can get a gun. If a police officer "feels" that his life is in any danger whatsoever, threatening, he is protected under the law to defend himself and kill the invader, attacker, perpetrator.

Lee, I am reading you very clearly, and nobody can tell you what you know, or suggest other possible avenues. You are a trained and experienced expert.
But if you close your threads and don't want to discuss with other members, to me it just don't fly right.

Cheers,
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
46
1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
Bob,

Kids may know the law (didactics) better than some police officers because they can do the reading and have the opportunity to become well-versed in the subject. Those same kids would not fare so well if they had to perform the physical confrontation aspect of the duties. That is a subject with which they have no experience. Thus, suggestions and knowledge that have a potential basis in experience are welcome. Suggestions that immediately betray no knowledge/experience of the subject have less value. I personally adapted my curriculum for training others as I learned/tried new material. Ego and rigidity have no place where people's lives are concerned.

Imagine telling our most esteemed members how to hook up their system when one doesn't have a system if their own, etc. That is a steep hill indeed.

As to your final comments about me being an "expert" and cannot be told anything, I consider that a direct insult.

Lee
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,024
1,490
520
Eastern WA
Lee, that's really good information. It makes total sense to me why most departments only deploy tasers when two officers are present.

But you do see how the public is still seeking more non-mortal solutions, correct? Even if we don't have the answer yet, today's circumstances are not a reason to scrap the sentiment or technology development. The public isn't wrong to want this, and if law enforcement isn't working towards it then they are a system that is falsely portraying their function - particularly given how many non-armed, non-threatening citizens do get hurt/killed.

Again, I'm not saying there are not plenty of cases where I'd have made the call to shoot the person. In fact there's plenty of things out there that put the fear into me, and increase my desire to be armed and prepared. It's beyond me how the public at large makes their decisions on what is and is not a correct use of force given some cases that were brought into the limelight where the officer acted correctly.
 
Last edited:

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Lee, if you want strictly experienced police officers posting in your threads, fine.
You are probably right, anyone else without first hand experience have most likely zero opinion value. ...And the same goes with audio, and anything/everything else in life.
I guess only experts have valid opinions.

And I'm not insulting you: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...c-tries-it-out&p=403272&viewfull=1#post403272

"Once again, we arrive at the point where a lack of personal, real experience with the subject at hand produces hypothetical solutions to situations that have been carefully studied. A non-pilot could never tell a Fighter Weapons School pilot how to control his aircraft, and the same situation is at work here. The elements of real-life deadly force confrontations cannot be successfully "arm-chaired" to concoct field procedures.

I am unfortunately at the point where I now understand that all of these threads are presented to an audience who understandably has no context with the material. I'll leave this thread open for a short time to address any further questions about its contents, then close it."
- Lee
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
Bob, if you can not be respectful to our resident moderator then perhaps you should refrain from posting in this thread at all. I have officers in my family and I find your thoughts and perceived degradation of police officers appalling. It would be wise to not confront a moderator on this forum either. We all see eye to eye and your posts on this topic are getting confrontational. If this keeps up, perhaps another involuntary vacation is in order for you.

Stick to the topic. Any more personal commentary toward one of our fellow moderators and you will be enjoying a vacation from the WBF. Consider this a formal warning.

This is not up to debate.

Tom
 

es347

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,577
35
970
Midwest fly over state..
Bob,

Kids may know the law (didactics) better than some police officers because they can do the reading and have the opportunity to become well-versed in the subject. Those same kids would not fare so well if they had to perform the physical confrontation aspect of the duties. That is a subject with which they have no experience. Thus, suggestions and knowledge that have a potential basis in experience are welcome. Suggestions that immediately betray no knowledge/experience of the subject have less value. I personally adapted my curriculum for training others as I learned/tried new material. Ego and rigidity have no place where people's lives are concerned.

Imagine telling our most esteemed members how to hook up their system when one doesn't have a system if their own, etc. That is a steep hill indeed.

As to your final comments about me being an "expert" and cannot be told anything, I consider that a direct insult.

Lee

..you must consider the source... 13,636 posts and counting
 

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
3,320
730
1,200
Bellevue
Lee,

I guess my concern is more around culture. As an example, in 2011, the entire German police force (policing a population of 80 million) fired 85 rounds; 49 of which were warning shots. In England and Wales there were no fatal police shootings in 2012 and 2013. By contrast, the Miami police used more than 100 rounds on a single traffic incident in 2011; wounding 3 innocent bystanders... I understand that there are way more guns in America, but fail to comprehend that non-Americans are any more docile or less prone to violence than Americans. Indeed, the rate of violent crime in the UK (burglary, assault, rape, etc.) is higher than in the US. Would appreciate your thoughts...
 

BobShermanEsq

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2015
231
1
98
Once again, we arrive at the point where a lack of personal, real experience with the subject at hand produces hypothetical solutions to situations that have been carefully studied. A non-pilot could never tell a Fighter Weapons School pilot how to control his aircraft, and the same situation is at work here. The elements of real-life deadly force confrontations cannot be successfully "arm-chaired" to concoct field procedures.

I am unfortunately at the point where I now understand that all of these threads are presented to an audience who understandably has no context with the material. I'll leave this thread open for a short time to address any further questions about its contents, then close it.

Lee

Hi Lee,

It is possible that some might be familiar either directly or indirectly, and have some knowledge or experience on the subjects.

I'm curious if you would want to say, have you been involved or shot anyone in the line of duty?

I'm thinking that although this is informative and a current topic of discussion, most people, I think look at this as a last resort.

Our sensibilities push us to a point where we wish this does not have to happen. As unrealistic as this might seem in today's society, it's just a positive thought.

Regards
Bob
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,024
1,490
520
Eastern WA
Lee,

I guess my concern is more around culture. As an example, in 2011, the entire German police force (policing a population of 80 million) fired 85 rounds; 49 of which were warning shots. In England and Wales there were no fatal police shootings in 2012 and 2013. By contrast, the Miami police used more than 100 rounds on a single traffic incident in 2011; wounding 3 innocent bystanders... I understand that there are way more guns in America, but fail to comprehend that non-Americans are any more docile or less prone to violence than Americans. Indeed, the rate of violent crime in the UK (burglary, assault, rape, etc.) is higher than in the US. Would appreciate your thoughts...

There's certainly ways to reduce the amount of firearm discharges it would appear. It might be good to compare their police to ours in terms of training, equipment, and field sceneries (partners?).
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
46
1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
I have a unique distinction of being a "civilian" who was granted certification to offer training to the Dept of Public Safety's various organizations. I am not a police officer. Therefore, I have a unique perspective from which I can approach these issues. I have participated in a great deal of the force-on-force training described here, and led many sessions as well. I personally own the Simunitions firearms like used in the video (blue framed handguns) and will tell you that they hurt like hell if you are shot in bare skin. I have not shot/killed anybody in real life. I have also been certified to conduct Shocknife training (a training knife that uses 75,000 volts along the edge of the dull blade so that it feels like you are cut). We do have a member or two here who have shot people in self defense, and I will not betray their privacy. I hope this clarifies my involvement and experience. I draw upon my conversations with and knowledge of individuals who have had police-level incidents to flesh out my comments in these matters. I have been attacked by a knife-wielding attacker in the past as well.

The breakdown of respect for police officers and the overall "societal contract" in America is largely to blame. Since a political discussion is a bad direction to go, let's leave it at that.

Thank you all for your interest and participation. I understand that this can be a very hot topic.

Lee
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing