Benz "MR" Stylus Lifespan?

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
I remember reading that when Benz was using the "FG" stylus it was not uncommon to get 2,500-3000 hrs. from it if taken well care of. Now that their using a "MR" stylus with what seems a more radical profile, does this shorten the life expectancy any?
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Mine went four years and I would guess easily over three thousand hours and then the tip chipped/cracked some how. I sent it to Soundsmith and had only the tip done. Its been back for a few months now and sounds just like it did right up until it started distorting. A close friend of mine got his LPS-mr 4-5 months before me and ended up getting his done the same time as me. His was also distorting. His also had just the tip done. His cartridge also had heavy use. So I would think it does not shorten life span.
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked had to do with a recent purchase of a second LP-S.
When I had my LP I was told by a local cart. repairer (Andy Kim) that Benz uses exceptionally good styli and that it's not uncommon to get them to 3000 hrs. He had adj. my suspension and it sounded awesome till it started to distort. (This I blame on a remounting mishap after I noticed my cart. had loosened up, which is why I no longer use washers!). I decided to move up to the LP-S, which now has 600 hrs. on it. While I like my LP-S, I was missing a bit of the LP magic so I went looking for a used LP. A local shop advertised what they claimed was an LP as a trade in. As it turned out it's actually an LP-S not an LP. The shop est. it had 800-1000 hrs. on it based upon his experience of looking at styli under a microscope. He est. it had at least half of it's life left, which he put at 1000 hrs. I thought that was low since he was using 2000 hrs. as a lifespan, hence my question. I think it should have more. As it turns out, a few weeks later I came across an almost new LP locally, which I now own.

What's the story on the distortion issue? Any idea? Have you talked to Soundsmith? FWIW, I will be putting my second LP-S on the market since I no longer need it. It has a slightly warmer character than my LP-S but not by much. I'm dreading the day when I need to replace my Benz's. The person who sold me his LP told me he's has had good success with Van den Hul rebuilding his cart's.
 

TBone

New Member
Nov 15, 2012
1,237
1
0
Prior to the MR, Benz used to use FG-S stylus its top models for years, which is very similar to Ortofon's Replicant.

Jonathan Carr ...

"Among cartridge manufacturers, "micro line" is used only to refer to the microline and microridge styli manufactured by Namiki Jewel. Among audiophiles, however, it appears to be used more broadly to designate advanced line-contact styli in general, which is wrong and a source of confusion.

The major hallmark of the microridge profile is that contact with the LP groove is achieved by side wings or ridges that protrude to either side of the stylus. If you could look at a microridge from directly above with a microscope, you would see that these ridges stand proud of the main section of the stylus, and have a very narrow side radius of 2.5um. Due to the small side radius, the microridge has better high-frequency capabilities than any other stylus shape, and due to the protruding nature of the ridges, the microridge can be worn perceptibly and still retain its high-frequency tracking capabilities. With other stylus profiles, wear causes the side radii to become bigger and bigger, and this means that the high-frequency tracking capabilities deteriorate.

However, there is more to a stylus than just the side radius. If you look at a line-contact stylus from the front, you will see that it is shaped like a spearhead with curved (convex) blades. This curvature is referred to as the major radius, and the shape and size determines the vertical length of the stylus' contact patch with the LP groove. The larger the major radius, the longer the contact patch becomes, but alignment becomes less tolerant of errors.

The the Ogura PA has major radius of 30~35um, the microridges have a major radius of about 70~75um, while stylii like the Replicant 120 and Gyger S will have a major radius of about 120um. As you can surmise, the microridges can track more of the groove than a PA, and a Gyger S can track even more of the groove (but will be trickier to set up).

OTOH, the Replicant 120 and Gyger S have a side radius of around 5~6um, about double that of the microridge. FWIW, the Ogura PA has about 3um. A larger side radius is kinder if you are playing records made of fragile materials (like molded styrene), but the larger side radius will fit less well into very high frequency groove undulations, which get smaller the shorter the signal wavelength (IOW, the higher the frequency).

In summary, rather than what is better or worse, these stylus profiles were designed with different philosophies and priorities, and different styli may be preferred depending on what the cartridge designer wants to achieve for a specific model.

The longer major radius of the Gyger S suggests that you will need to be more careful of azimuth during setup, while the microridge won't be quite so demanding in this respect (but more so than with a PA). Molded styrene records may be OK with the Gyger S, but should be kept away away from cartridges with microridge or PA styli.
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked had to do with a recent purchase of a second LP-S.
When I had my LP I was told by a local cart. repairer (Andy Kim) that Benz uses exceptionally good styli and that it's not uncommon to get them to 3000 hrs. He had adj. my suspension and it sounded awesome till it started to distort. (This I blame on a remounting mishap after I noticed my cart. had loosened up, which is why I no longer use washers!). I decided to move up to the LP-S, which now has 600 hrs. on it. While I like my LP-S, I was missing a bit of the LP magic so I went looking for a used LP. A local shop advertised what they claimed was an LP as a trade in. As it turned out it's actually an LP-S not an LP. The shop est. it had 800-1000 hrs. on it based upon his experience of looking at styli under a microscope. He est. it had at least half of it's life left, which he put at 1000 hrs. I thought that was low since he was using 2000 hrs. as a lifespan, hence my question. I think it should have more. As it turns out, a few weeks later I came across an almost new LP locally, which I now own.

What's the story on the distortion issue? Any idea? Have you talked to Soundsmith? FWIW, I will be putting my second LP-S on the market since I no longer need it. It has a slightly warmer character than my LP-S but not by much. I'm dreading the day when I need to replace my Benz's. The person who sold me his LP told me he's has had good success with Van den Hul rebuilding his cart's.

Both our cartridges had small chips broke off the tips. Causing the distortion. I also owned the LP but never did enjoy it much. I tried the S class Gullwing and liked it more. Ended up selling the Gullwing and LP, moving to LPS.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Prior to the MR, Benz used to use FG-S stylus its top models for years, which is very similar to Ortofon's Replicant.

Jonathan Carr ...

"Among cartridge manufacturers, "micro line" is used only to refer to the microline and microridge styli manufactured by Namiki Jewel. Among audiophiles, however, it appears to be used more broadly to designate advanced line-contact styli in general, which is wrong and a source of confusion.

The major hallmark of the microridge profile is that contact with the LP groove is achieved by side wings or ridges that protrude to either side of the stylus. If you could look at a microridge from directly above with a microscope, you would see that these ridges stand proud of the main section of the stylus, and have a very narrow side radius of 2.5um. Due to the small side radius, the microridge has better high-frequency capabilities than any other stylus shape, and due to the protruding nature of the ridges, the microridge can be worn perceptibly and still retain its high-frequency tracking capabilities. With other stylus profiles, wear causes the side radii to become bigger and bigger, and this means that the high-frequency tracking capabilities deteriorate.

However, there is more to a stylus than just the side radius. If you look at a line-contact stylus from the front, you will see that it is shaped like a spearhead with curved (convex) blades. This curvature is referred to as the major radius, and the shape and size determines the vertical length of the stylus' contact patch with the LP groove. The larger the major radius, the longer the contact patch becomes, but alignment becomes less tolerant of errors.

The the Ogura PA has major radius of 30~35um, the microridges have a major radius of about 70~75um, while stylii like the Replicant 120 and Gyger S will have a major radius of about 120um. As you can surmise, the microridges can track more of the groove than a PA, and a Gyger S can track even more of the groove (but will be trickier to set up).

OTOH, the Replicant 120 and Gyger S have a side radius of around 5~6um, about double that of the microridge. FWIW, the Ogura PA has about 3um. A larger side radius is kinder if you are playing records made of fragile materials (like molded styrene), but the larger side radius will fit less well into very high frequency groove undulations, which get smaller the shorter the signal wavelength (IOW, the higher the frequency).

In summary, rather than what is better or worse, these stylus profiles were designed with different philosophies and priorities, and different styli may be preferred depending on what the cartridge designer wants to achieve for a specific model.

The longer major radius of the Gyger S suggests that you will need to be more careful of azimuth during setup, while the microridge won't be quite so demanding in this respect (but more so than with a PA). Molded styrene records may be OK with the Gyger S, but should be kept away away from cartridges with microridge or PA styli.

Another jewel from JCarr, and matches with what I know. I had missed that post of his on audiogon... thanks for sharing
 

TBone

New Member
Nov 15, 2012
1,237
1
0
Another jewel from JCarr, and matches with what I know.

Mr.Carr certainly knows the cut of a diamond.

His quote matches my experiences also.

As per MR longevity ... "due to the protruding nature of the ridges, the microridge can be worn perceptibly and still retain its high-frequency tracking capabilities. With other stylus profiles, wear causes the side radii to become bigger and bigger, and this means that the high-frequency tracking capabilities deteriorate.",

My only experience with the MR profile is limited to my past V15mr5 experiences. Been a long while, but I do recall having to replace the stylus ~ 3 times in about a ~5 year span, before finally deciding to move-on to other alternatives.
 

TBone

New Member
Nov 15, 2012
1,237
1
0
I remember reading that when Benz was using the "FG" stylus it was not uncommon to get 2,500-3000 hrs. from it if taken well care of. Now that their using a "MR" stylus with what seems a more radical profile, does this shorten the life expectancy any?

From experience, I can safely state (and show measurable evidence) that no stylus at 2.5/3k hrs will reproduce the extreme high frequencies correctly. Even at 500 hrs, a styli ability to correctly track above 15Khz may be compromised.

The first thing I look for in any Cart is stylus profile, where the tire hits the road so to speak. As J.Carr suggest, different cuts mean different compromises. Replicant types, and older Benz w/FG-S require very-careful setup, I'd even go as far as suggest they're not be the best choice for mounting on turntables which don't force the LP to lay dead flat, allowing little azimuth offset. The MR's are more forgiving ... but personally, I don't think they last any longer, and they're even less forgiving of dirtier LPs, they'll pick-up a lot of crud otherwise.
 

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