Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe

Al M.

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Interesting post, caesar. I agree that the two experiences, in their entirety, are very much different. However, I think that Al is simply referring to the "sound" of live, unamplified instruments, in a real setting and comparing that sound to the "sound" of recorded instruments over his system in his room. I don't think he is also referring to the rest of what happens at live shows all around him, which can certainly never be reproduced in the home. He is not pretending that he can get the Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock experience in his living room. The mud, the girls, the drugs, the garbage, etc.

Another great example of reproduced sound is in Rockitman's system. I heard this system a couple of years ago. Christian told me and my friend that he traveled for years to Grateful Dead concerts and recorded many of them to tape. Christian's system reproduces very well that live, amplified, "wall of sound" of a rock concert, heard at these kinds of shows, though I am sure not all of what one experiences at a Dead concert. It also reproduces solo, acoustic instruments well.

I can't help but think that Rockitman's system is set up in part to reflect and to reproduce his memory of the sound of his live musical references. They are different in scale and type from Al's references which tend to be smaller scale, acoustic performances, but nevertheless, they are reflective of the owner's reference to the "sound" of live music.

Well, perhaps I should not write for Al or others. I try, often unsuccessfully, to reproduce the sound of a violin, voice, or piano, through my system at home. I use my memory of such sounds from the experiences I've had. It is only a guide and reference. I don't know of a better one. Others have the goal of simply enjoying or getting lost in their music, regardless of how convincing they think it is or is not. That is fine too.

As you said, Peter. However, substitute "smaller scale, acoustic performances" with "acoustic performances". Orchestral music is also a reference for me (obviously, as it is for you), while I am aware that no system, even a large one in a large room, can reproduce the sheer scale of an orchestra close-up. And certainly not mine ;)
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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That is an experiment I may try with my acoustic guitar. Of course the make and type of microphone used makes a huge difference with experiments like this.

The microphone that was used in the recording and all of the other downstream gear definitely add to the differences one hears. However, this is still a valid test IMO, simply due to the fact that the 'live' reference is right there and immediate.
Therefore, the ear/brain/memory factor is less clouded.
As Peter stated above, the real piano on the room is going to sound very different to the piano that is being reproduced....BUT there are still notes that are played on both instruments ( live and reproduced) that should have similarity...and that applies to not just pitch, IMHO.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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If I had to rank in order of importance...

Table
Phono Stage
Arm/Cart

In the end though...it's the synergy between all four that determines how good the music reproduction is with a particular setup.

Thank you
 

caesar

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That is an experiment I may try with my acoustic guitar. Of course the make and type of microphone used makes a huge difference with experiments like this.

Also, try it with you playing it and someone else playing for you - 2 different perspectives of a guy in the band and a listener.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Interesting post, caesar. I agree that the two experiences, in their entirety, are very much different. However, I think that Al is simply referring to the "sound" of live, unamplified instruments, in a real setting and comparing that sound to the "sound" of recorded instruments over his system in his room. I don't think he is also referring to the rest of what happens at live shows all around him, which can certainly never be reproduced in the home. He is not pretending that he can get the Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock experience in his living room. The mud, the girls, the drugs, the garbage, etc.

Another great example of reproduced sound is in Rockitman's system. I heard this system a couple of years ago. Christian told me and my friend that he traveled for years to Grateful Dead concerts and recorded many of them to tape. Christian's system reproduces very well that live, amplified, "wall of sound" of a rock concert, heard at these kinds of shows, though I am sure not all of what one experiences at a Dead concert. It also reproduces solo, acoustic instruments well.

I can't help but think that Rockitman's system is set up in part to reflect and to reproduce his memory of the sound of his live musical references. They are different in scale and type from Al's references which tend to be smaller scale, acoustic performances, but nevertheless, they are reflective of the owner's reference to the "sound" of live music.

Well, perhaps I should not write for Al or others. I try, often unsuccessfully, to reproduce the sound of a violin, voice, or piano, through my system at home. I use my memory of such sounds from the experiences I've had. It is only a guide and reference. I don't know of a better one. Others have the goal of simply enjoying or getting lost in their music, regardless of how convincing they think it is or is not. That is fine too.

I think we are in agreement for the most part. I was just trying to explain why people use "real instruments" as a mental model, and ,of course, the influence of Plato.

In my experience, other than a finger snap in some cases, it's really hard to get "real."
 

Al M.

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I think we are in agreement for the most part. I was just trying to explain why people use "real instruments" as a mental model, and ,of course, the influence of Plato.

In my experience, other than a finger snap in some cases, it's really hard to get "real."

Agreed.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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If I had to rank in order of importance...

Table
Phono Stage
Arm/Cart

In the end though...it's the synergy between all four that determines how good the music reproduction is with a particular setup.

Hi, when I went to ddk's there was a big difference in his 4 tables, when we rotated the SPU on them. Also when we changed the cart on the American sounds from SPU to Neumann, it was dramatic, and on the EMT 927 from DST-62 to the EMT cartridge there was a clear difference though one could enjoy both. We never changed arms and phono.

I recently compared the Kuzma Stabi Ref with 4 point tonearm to the Blue Pearl JEM with a Graham Phantom. For those who don't know the JEM, as only 3 or 4 pieces were made in the UK, Audiocrack owns one with a Muzma Airline and Lyra Atlas. Roy Gregory's review in 93/94 in Hifi news said it "stomped" on the Rockport Sirius. He also rated it higher than the then VPI top of the line and clearaudio master. It is a rare table with a 45kg (110lb) steel platter.

When I compared the two tables, the Blue Pearl JEM was clearly superior on all aspects of bass, slam, dynamics, separation, and soundstage to the Kuzma Stabi Ref. Difference was clear on full symphony, where the JEM just held the music together better. The only difference on the two tables was the arm. The JEM also had a much more rounded bottom end. Both tables were neutral and not in the pretty sense like Thorens Ref or at a lesser cost a Linn Lp12.

On the JEM we used both the VDH Colibri platinum coil and copper coil cart. The Copper was more laid back, while the Platinum was super explosive. The comparison between the tables was done with the Platinum. The Platinum also had more real timbre, though some would have thought it a bit brighter.

We then changed the phono stage from NVO spa ii special edition to the Aesthetix IO Sig. The difference wasn't as much as the above two, though Aesthetix had more gain and played complex passages with more separation, NVO had more tube like finesse.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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I recently compared the Kuzma Stabi Ref with 4 point tonearm to the Blue Pearl JEM with a Graham Phantom. For those who don't know the JEM, as only 3 or 4 pieces were made in the UK, Audiocrack owns one with a Muzma Airline and Lyra Atlas. Roy Gregory's review in 93/94 in Hifi news said it "stomped" on the Rockport Sirius. He also rated it higher than the then VPI top of the line and clearaudio master. It is a rare table with a 45kg (110lb) steel platter.

When I compared the two tables, the Blue Pearl JEM was clearly superior on all aspects of bass, slam, dynamics, separation, and soundstage to the Kuzma Stabi Ref. Difference was clear on full symphony, where the JEM just held the music together better. The only difference on the two tables was the arm. The JEM also had a much more rounded bottom end. Both tables were neutral and not in the pretty sense like Thorens Ref or at a lesser cost a Linn Lp12.

Interesting. But doesn't the difference in arm invalidate the comparison?
 

FrantzM

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XV-1

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Interesting. But doesn't the difference in arm invalidate the comparison?

No Its doesn't. If one believes the reviews, the Kuzma 4point is a lot better than the Phantom. That makes the Blue Pearl even better sounding right?:cool:
 

Al M.

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Good point, Al. And you are an only-digital guy.

Thanks. I may be an only-digital guy but I am also a scientist. If you change two variables simultaneously in a given experiment, you cannot know which change is responsible for the different outcome. One change of variable at a time is the way to proceed.

Obviously, you and Frantz agree with that.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Interesting. But doesn't the difference in arm invalidate the comparison?

Hi Al, there is a reason I emphasized the arms were different, because I know it wasn't a perfectly controlled experiment. At the same time, it doesn't totally invalidate the findings, as this is not the only experiment. A comparison of the two arms is much more easier to carry out, and has been done so by others. If I wanted to make a final decision on purchasing the Jem, the arm compare is the first thing I would do to take out any uncertainty. Also the Jem in audiocracks set up has a lot of bass, stage, slam.

I also wanted to point out to Caesar's question that in that set up, difference in those two phonos was easiest to live with. Then was difference in carts. One was laid back, the other more explosive and real timbre, though harsher at times. For me the second cart would have been a must over the first cart. But the most differentiating factor between the two for full symphony was the table (or table-arm) set up.

I have heard the Kuzma stabi ref with triplanar and lyra kleos many times at Bill's. And I have heard kuzma xl4 with 4 point in two different set ups now, with different cartridges. Will also compare Kuzma stabi with a modded Linn lp12. I really liked the sound of this modded linn when i heard it in a system, it was extremely engaging and musical, and very low priced, so I want to do the compare to isolate the effect of the TT.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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How many of you guys have actually brought a real instrument into your listening room and done an 'AB' between it and the reproduced?
. . .

A.J. Conti actually does this in his office. One of A.J.'s colleagues is a classically-trained musician and A.J. has her play her instrument in the office sometimes for a direct A/B comparison.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I plan to start a thread on the LP1 Sig soon. It is just about broken in. Last night I was listening to my other phono stage...Allnic H5000 DHT. While slightly different sounding, they are more a like than different. In fact I would call these two unit's competitive peers. At this point I cannot say which one I like better. I like both. Any difference's are pretty subtle. I feel the Lamm has a bit more dynamic speed than the Allnic. The Allnic sounds a bit more tube romantic where as the Lamm seems to have the best of both worlds... SS (Speed) and tube(bloom). It's going to take some time to flesh out the differences between the two and to be able to put it to words...I will try to do so in the near future.

I am happy to have both units. It is nice to have the option of 4 MC inputs for two TT's....excluding two additional MM inputs I could use with outboard step up transformers.

Bump

I'm curious how things are going in your quest
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Bump

I'm curious how things are going in your quest

I'm enjoying the LP1. The low powered 60dB SUT is a tad weak for LOMC .3mV or less. I'm using the 70dB hi gain inboard SUT. As far as how it stacks up against my Allnic ? They are on about par with each other performance wise. They both do their special magic with the vibrations coming off the grooves and are just a bit different in presentation. The Allnic required great expense, time and effort to get the most out of it in the rectifier dept. Ultimately...the most coveted tubes...Western Electric (422A's) in my case brought the best out of the Allnic. The Lamm sounded great right out of the box. Tube rolling doesn't appear to be necessary.

One strange issue I didn't expect to encounter is how far apart the L&R inputs are from one another. One of my Odin phono cables, the leads are not long enough to reach for the hi output inputs (outer most) on the Lamm. Overall all I am happy with the purchase and would do it again. I much prefer two reference phono stages in the system. Gives me more options.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I'm enjoying the LP1. The low powered 60dB SUT is a tad weak for LOMC .3mV or less. I'm using the 70dB hi gain inboard SUT. As far as how it stacks up against my Allnic ? They are on about par with each other performance wise. They both do their special magic with the vibrations coming off the grooves and are just a bit different in presentation. The Allnic required great expense, time and effort to get the most out of it in the rectifier dept. Ultimately...the most coveted tubes...Western Electric (422A's) in my case brought the best out of the Allnic. The Lamm sounded great right out of the box. Tube rolling doesn't appear to be necessary.

One strange issue I didn't expect to encounter is how far apart the L&R inputs are from one another. One of my Odin phono cables, the leads are not long enough to reach for the hi output inputs (outer most) on the Lamm. Overall all I am happy with the purchase and would do it again. I much prefer two reference phono stages in the system. Gives me more options.

I totally agree with your last point and I am betting it is related to the circuit board
 

jfrech

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Christian, thanks for the longer term update !
 

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