Magico M3

FrantzM

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Hi

Slightly OT ... Dimensions of a room do have an ifluence on the distribution of modes but they're not the only factors e.g wall materials do affect modes. Most modes calculator assume inelastic wall (no flex, read concrete without really naming it); reality is that room walls have flex and are often made of different materials concrete, plasternoard, plasterboard on concrete, sheetrock, etc .. This mix of materials change substantially the distribution, frequencies and locations of modes ... So let's leave the speaker a little bit alone ... They can go past 30 Hz ,, The Q3 can and so does the S5 ....

Jim Smith knows a thing or two and if I were to go that road he's one of the few fellows I would listen to (pun intended).

Back to the Magico M3 ...
 

microstrip

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Hi

Slightly OT ... Dimensions of a room do have an ifluence on the distribution of modes but they're not the only factors e.g wall materials do affect modes. Most modes calculator assume inelastic wall (no flex, read concrete without really naming it); reality is that room walls have flex and are often made of different materials concrete, plasternoard, plasterboard on concrete, sheetrock, etc .. This mix of materials change substantially the distribution, frequencies and locations of modes ... So let's leave the speaker a little bit alone ... They can go past 30 Hz ,, The Q3 can and so does the S5 ....

Jim Smith knows a thing or two and if I were to go that road he's one of the few fellows I would listen to (pun intended).

Back to the Magico M3 ...

Nice to agree with you on this one - the problem is more complex than people can assume just from the distribution of modes. It is why I asked the question ... BTW, I have read the Jim Smith book, but did not have the time to see the DVD's - yet!
 

Cincy2

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Could you discuss a bit more about the three specific sonic characteristics that Jim focuses on, namely Dynamics, Tone, and Presence? How did they change or improve after Jim's visit? And did you discuss with him the type of subwoofer to try. One, multiple, powered, brand, size, etc.

I'll need the next week to evaluate those characteristics with my reference tracks. I had a business trip today and drove Jim and myself to the airport last night. As far as subwoofers, Jim is a Rel fan and told me to look at the G1/G2. Going to have to cut out a cardboard template and look for room for them before I buy (the G1 Mk 2 is 23 W x 27 L.

Eric
 

Cincy2

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Did Jim find any explanation for the suckout between 20 and 40 Hz? It looks like a complete octave in the low bass, not just an isolated dip.

This situation was left after we had the rest of the spectrum pretty flat. We could make it go away by adjusting variables but other more important parts of the frequency band suffered. He recommended and I agreed to stop with this room related issue and deal with it via subwoofers. I don't blame the speakers since there were multiple positions where the suck out disappeared.

Eric
 

FrantzM

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This situation was left after we had the rest of the spectrum pretty flat. We could make it go away by adjusting variables but other more important parts of the frequency band suffered. He recommended and I agreed to stop with this room related issue and deal with it via subwoofers. I don't blame the speakers since there were multiple positions where the suck out disappeared.

Eric

Hi

FWIW... Subwoofers are IMO the best way to deal with this kind of issue. In my world view subwoofers are necessary accessories. The locations where speakers sound the best, provide the best sweet spot, soundstaging, imaging and coherency rarely if ever coincide with the best locations forbest low bass. You may have witnessed and experienced this while Jim was working on your system. Subwoofers when correctly integrated (far from the impossibility that some audiophiles would make of it) brings a lot to the reproduction: Correct low bass reproduction when well integrated with the rest of the spectrum brings only positives to the reproduction. Everything becomes clearer, everything becomes better.

I would suggest you to heed Jim's advice. And IMHO it doesn't have to be the Magico subwoofers.
 
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mauidan

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So, I spend $75K on full range speakers, and pay an "expert" $2K+ to coming in and voice the system, and now I need subwoofers to make it work correctly?

Does Magico train their dealers on proper speaker set up?
 

cannata

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So, I spend $75K on full range speakers, and pay an "expert" $2K+ to coming in and voice the system, and now I need subwoofers to make it work correctly?

Does Magico train their dealers on proper speaker set up?

Congratulations, this post must hold the record for insulting as many people as possible in two sentences. You must be very proud of yourself.
 

Cincy2

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So, I spend $75K on full range speakers, and pay an "expert" $2K+ to coming in and voice the system, and now I need subwoofers to make it work correctly?

Does Magico train their dealers on proper speaker set up?

A valid question. The speakers as set up by the dealer and myself sounded amazing to my ears. Bringing in Jim took them over the top using his 40+ years of experience and electronic measurement equipment.. Even without the subs, this sound is phenomenal. I suffer from an affliction that makes me want to achieve the maximum potential of the system. The extra cost of Jim's voicing and a pair of sub woofers is worth it to me. That's the only person who has to be satisfied.

Eric
 

andromedaaudio

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Do wilson dealers set up a speaker and measure after they move the speaker ?
If you dont do that you re still missing out performance wise , with the resistors one can fine tune the FR,apart from moving them .
Good tip for audiophiles buy a pocket clio system and do it yourself , much better and more efficient then spending thousands of $$ on cables and swapping components .
http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739
If you wanna change something you have to know whats wrong first much like a docter ;)
 
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Al M.

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So, I spend $75K on full range speakers, and pay an "expert" $2K+ to coming in and voice the system, and now I need subwoofers to make it work correctly?

Does Magico train their dealers on proper speaker set up?

I wouldn't trust any dealer setting up my speakers. My own speakers are set up in a way that violates some 'rules' (rules are meant to be broken) but are the optimum for my room and my tastes -- a room that after a number of years I know better than anyone else. As for my tastes, I don't need to have any dealer tell me what those are supposed to be.

As for subwoofers, any speakers can use them, also full-range ones. Even if just for help with recordings that sound anemic in the bass. The bass output of recordings varied wildly, and I routinely use my subwoofer settings to compensate for that. And that problem of varying bass output is not magically waved away by very expensive full range speakers either; anemic recordings sound anemic also on those, as I have extensively witnessed myself.

But there are other reasons why subwoofers are desirable also for full-range speakers, including expensive ones. Some of them have been mentioned on this thread.
 

FrantzM

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I wouldn't trust any dealer setting up my speakers. My own speakers are set up in a way that violates some 'rules' (rules are meant to be broken) but are the optimum for my room and my tastes -- a room that after a number of years I know better than anyone else. As for my tastes, I don't need to have any dealer tell me what those are supposed to be.

As for subwoofers, any speakers can use them, also full-range ones. Even if just for help with recordings that sound anemic in the bass. The bass output of recordings varied wildly, and I routinely use my subwoofer settings to compensate for that. And that problem of varying bass output is not magically waved away by very expensive full range speakers either; anemic recordings sound anemic also on those, as I have extensively witnessed myself.

But there are other reasons why subwoofers are desirable also for full-range speakers, including expensive ones. Some of them have been mentioned on this thread.

Not entirely disagreeing with you. The past few years have seen the rise of what some call Relativism in High End Audio. it is losely based on the premises that we all hear differently. Truth seems to be and there are strong indications that we tend to like the same things when our biases are in check. The reality of bass is that unless room is close to perfection in dimensions, construction and treatment.. Low bass requires subwoofer.. ot to account for taste but to have a closer to the truth reproduction..
My take on t his is to make sure the response is linear across the spectrum then we tilt around what we like but we start with the proverbial clean slate and to me that is what subwoofers promises and the great and wonderful paradox is that it works even better with full range speakers ...

Thus a knowledgeable person can help. I remember the first time I paid attention to my TV after calibration, it seemed dull with muted colors then I began to notice that things that up to then I though were green were actually brown!!! Skin tones became different .. within races ... make-up became clear and subtle shifts in lightring became not only perceivable but added to the story ... Same with Audio, it takes a certain amount of time to appreciate improvments. We often call this breaking in but.. a different discussion. Our coming to like something requires an education. None of us think the Bose Dreammachine is the pinnacle of good dsound and we would know that blind.. It still requires some education in knowing what to like ... Some dealers and some people , call them audio buddies can steer us in that direction.. Reading Jim Smith , I find he and I to be on the same page and considering the vast amount we spend in things that frankly do not make a iota of differences once we don't know they're there .. I would go with Jim. IMHO the price asked is more than reasonable and I bet Jim works will make much perceivable differences and improvements that its equivalent in Shun Mook or mpingo dots .. And I would go witht subs (front and back at least 4 and DSP corrected .. Of Course ;))
 

Al M.

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Thus a knowledgeable person can help. I remember the first time I paid attention to my TV after calibration, it seemed dull with muted colors then I began to notice that things that up to then I though were green were actually brown!!! Skin tones became different .. within races ... make-up became clear and subtle shifts in lightring became not only perceivable but added to the story ... Same with Audio, it takes a certain amount of time to appreciate improvments. We often call this breaking in but.. a different discussion. Our coming to like something requires an education. None of us think the Bose Dreammachine is the pinnacle of good dsound and we would know that blind.. It still requires some education in knowing what to like ... Some dealers and some people , call them audio buddies can steer us in that direction.. Reading Jim Smith , I find he and I to be on the same page and considering the vast amount we spend in things that frankly do not make a iota of differences once we don't know they're there .. I would go with Jim. IMHO the price asked is more than reasonable and I bet Jim works will make much perceivable differences and improvements that its equivalent in Shun Mook or mpingo dots .. And I would go witht subs (front and back at least 4 and DSP corrected .. Of Course ;))

Not entirely disagreeing with you either. I have learned a lot from Peter A. who in turn has learned from Jim Smith. However, the final set-up still has to be done by you, since nobody but you knows what you like. Hey, Peter and I even differ on the seating position that we enjoy listening to my system. Obviously, I prefer mine ;).
 

Al M.

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The past few years have seen the rise of what some call Relativism in High End Audio. it is losely based on the premises that we all hear differently. Truth seems to be and there are strong indications that we tend to like the same things when our biases are in check.

Not quite true. We all have our psychological preferences for what we find the highest priorities in audio reproduction. For example, I am a liveliness and dynamics guy, whereas someone else will prioritize the 'perfect bass' above everything else. Just ask yourself: why do people have such vastly different systems?

Fact is also that we do hear things physiologically differently. For example, I disagree with others about the exact location of performers in the soundstage, depth wise. Also, when I had an issue with stability of stereo images (something I discussed in length recently on my system thread) another person heard the instrument in a solo trumpet recording to be located on the left side, whereas I heard it in the middle. That person was physiologically more sensitive to issues that also affected my perception on other recordings.
 

microstrip

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I wouldn't trust any dealer setting up my speakers. My own speakers are set up in a way that violates some 'rules' (rules are meant to be broken) but are the optimum for my room and my tastes -- a room that after a number of years I know better than anyone else. As for my tastes, I don't need to have any dealer tell me what those are supposed to be.

As for subwoofers, any speakers can use them, also full-range ones. Even if just for help with recordings that sound anemic in the bass. The bass output of recordings varied wildly, and I routinely use my subwoofer settings to compensate for that. And that problem of varying bass output is not magically waved away by very expensive full range speakers either; anemic recordings sound anemic also on those, as I have extensively witnessed myself.

But there are other reasons why subwoofers are desirable also for full-range speakers, including expensive ones. Some of them have been mentioned on this thread.

Two challenging statements, that would deserve each a separate thread. IMHO, usually an expert is welcome in setting up our speakers, if he knows how to listen to us and our speakers. He should be able to understand our preferences, advise on them and debate them with us, and use his expertise to build something we enjoy. Setting a pair of speakers is a management of compromises, someone who knows particularly well our speakers can be valuable. He should explain us what he has reached and why. The confusing side of using experts is that they rarely agree between them and use different methods. How can we select one of them without direct experience to their previous work?

I will leave the subwoofer matter for another post.
 

Mike Lavigne

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I wouldn't trust any dealer setting up my speakers. My own speakers are set up in a way that violates some 'rules' (rules are meant to be broken) but are the optimum for my room and my tastes -- a room that after a number of years I know better than anyone else. As for my tastes, I don't need to have any dealer tell me what those are supposed to be.

As for subwoofers, any speakers can use them, also full-range ones. Even if just for help with recordings that sound anemic in the bass. The bass output of recordings varied wildly, and I routinely use my subwoofer settings to compensate for that. And that problem of varying bass output is not magically waved away by very expensive full range speakers either; anemic recordings sound anemic also on those, as I have extensively witnessed myself.

But there are other reasons why subwoofers are desirable also for full-range speakers, including expensive ones. Some of them have been mentioned on this thread.

the most serious minded audiophiles keep pushing their systems further.

but first; it's ok to be a more passive audiophile and delegate set-up and room optimization. nothing wrong or somehow less worthy about that.

and also; it's perfectly fine to get set-up help to get over the hump in terms of performance, and then to keep pushing the system from that point. maybe that gun slinger came in and unlocked another level for you to then keep going with it.

I know that 10 years ago if I got set-up help I did not have the confidence to change things. but now I have moved on to another place. I had to change to get here.

in my case 2 and 1/2 years ago I had my speaker designer spend 2 days in my room working on things. his agenda was not room tuning, but speaker optimization. he did discover a large suck-out at 30 hz and recommended a fix. and he also gave me settings on my speakers for if I did solve the suck-out. in retrospect he was hampered by considerable reflective hash I had yet to deal with at that point. none-the-less he did turn me on to some issues which later helped to go further.

so getting help is a good thing along the way and may be something that gives you important tools to find the ideal.

but I do think that one's own sonic reference is how the ultimate performance is found. that spot you have in your minds eye. you get the system to do what you want it to do.
 

microstrip

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Not entirely disagreeing with you. The past few years have seen the rise of what some call Relativism in High End Audio. it is losely based on the premises that we all hear differently. Truth seems to be and there are strong indications that we tend to like the same things when our biases are in check. The reality of bass is that unless room is close to perfection in dimensions, construction and treatment.. Low bass requires subwoofer.. ot to account for taste but to have a closer to the truth reproduction..
(...)
Reading Jim Smith , I find he and I to be on the same page and considering the vast amount we spend in things that frankly do not make a iota of differences once we don't know they're there .. I would go with Jim. IMHO the price asked is more than reasonable and I bet Jim works will make much perceivable differences and improvements that its equivalent in Shun Mook or mpingo dots .. And I would go witht subs (front and back at least 4 and DSP corrected .. Of Course ;))

Frantz,

I will happily disagree with your point - general statistical preference applies to global populations, not individual audiophiles in such a small particular population as WBF readers, or even mature audiophiles. :D

Did you ever listen to a system set by Jim Smith? As far as I remember that he was against using subs in Perter's Mini II system.
 

Al M.

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the most serious minded audiophiles keep pushing their systems further.

but first; it's ok to be a more passive audiophile and delegate set-up and room optimization. nothing wrong or somehow less worthy about that.

and also; it's perfectly fine to get set-up help to get over the hump in terms of performance, and then to keep pushing the system from that point. maybe that gun slinger came in and unlocked another level for you to then keep going with it.

[..]

so getting help is a good thing along the way and may be something that gives you important tools to find the ideal.

but I do think that one's own sonic reference is how the ultimate performance is found. that spot you have in your minds eye. you get the system to do what you want it to do.

You've probably put it best, and in the most even-handed way, Mike.
 

microstrip

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(...) in my case 2 and 1/2 years ago I had my speaker designer spend 2 days in my room working on things. his agenda was not room tuning, but speaker optimization. (...)

IMHO the best person to get in your room to help setting the speakers. Unfortunately most of the time impossible to do.

Some manufacturers have specific methods for placing their speakers, even recommending particular recordings. As this is a Magico thread, it would be great to have some information on how the Magico people carry it.
 

Al M.

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IMHO, usually an expert is welcome in setting up our speakers, if he knows how to listen to us and our speakers. He should be able to understand our preferences, advise on them and debate them with us, and use his expertise to build something we enjoy. Setting a pair of speakers is a management of compromises, someone who knows particularly well our speakers can be valuable. He should explain us what he has reached and why.

Sure, initially this may be a way to go. Yet keep in mind that

a) you can discuss your preferences with the expert on the day of set-up, but even you might not be entirely clear about each detail of those preferences until you discover what changes in the set-up can do for you upon further experimentation, once the expert has left

b) changes in the electronic chain may also command changes in speaker set-up/listening position and/or acoustic treatment. For example, three years ago I upgraded my amps with external power supplies which, due to less injection of electronic noise, allowed much more spatial information to come through from the recordings. While the extra spatial depth and layering was welcome, on many recordings the images were too recessed. This wasn't the fault of the new power supplies, but the added spatial transparency revealed acoustic problems with my room that I hadn't noticed before. This caused me to install ASC window plugs, experiment with carpeting and acoustic panels, as well as changing speaker/listening chair positions.

The confusing side of using experts is that they rarely agree between them and use different methods. How can we select one of them without direct experience to their previous work?

…and as you point out, there are these problems with experts' help.
 

Mike Lavigne

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IMHO the best person to get in your room to help setting the speakers. Unfortunately most of the time impossible to do.

Some manufacturers have specific methods for placing their speakers, even recommending particular recordings. As this is a Magico thread, it would be great to have some information on how the Magico people carry it.

I'd love to get my speaker designer back in-room again, now that I've taken things to where they are and (in my mind) dealt with room issues that had been in the way.

I would expect that he could wring a little more blood from the turnip.
 

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