Compare ARC Ref 5SE with Dartzeel NHB-18NS

Cascais

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2012
257
2
150
Portugal
I am using an Audio Research Ref 5SE but thinking of leaving the wonderful world of tube electronics and going solid state. I need some help for such an important decision. Can anyone compare the sound of a Ref 5SE with the Dartzeel NHB-18NS preamplifier, not the latest model? My power amp is the Dartzeel NHB 108. Thanks.
 

etunes

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2012
64
25
925
Virginia Beach
I am using an Audio Research Ref 5SE but thinking of leaving the wonderful world of tube electronics and going solid state. I need some help for such an important decision. Can anyone compare the sound of a Ref 5SE with the Dartzeel NHB-18NS preamplifier, not the latest model? My power amp is the Dartzeel NHB 108. Thanks.

I've owned both each spent some quality time in my system. I used the ARC REF 2 SE as a phono stage when the 5SE was in the system.
I think the Dart synergy Pre/Amp combo opens up everything . Very musical , very dynamic. Everything improved for me. It's very hard for me to describe a sound difference . I found the ARC flatter less alive.
 

slcaudiophile

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2014
167
2
123
Um ... SLC?
I've owned both each spent some quality time in my system. I used the ARC REF 2 SE as a phono stage when the 5SE was in the system.
I think the Dart synergy Pre/Amp combo opens up everything . Very musical , very dynamic. Everything improved for me. It's very hard for me to describe a sound difference . I found the ARC flatter less alive.

really? that is interesting.

i just spent the last three weeks listening to some extremely high-end ss stuff ... i shouldn't give the name but it starts with an s and ends with a l. now, the pre/amp combo was significantly better then my arc tube integrated with some types of music, many many times better in some cases. but i listen to a lot of vocals, female especially and lots jazz ... miles davis, bill evans, etc. when i would listen music i listen most i always preferred tubes. with vocals tubes just sounds better to me. yes, its distortion but to me it has more texture and definition and has a fuller richer sound then i would get with ss. yes, ss is much more detailed and sharper and has deeper base and is probably more accurate. but to me, to my ears prefer the tube sound better. i did this comparison because i need to replace my integrated amp soon and i am doing it once and was strongly considering this particular ss line.

i am going to have to save more money and move to arc ref stuff or get their new foundation line and then i am calling it good.

maybe the dart stuff is the exception. it is really interesting the hear the difference in what people prefer.
 

etunes

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2012
64
25
925
Virginia Beach
really? that is interesting.

i just spent the last three weeks listening to some extremely high-end ss stuff ... i shouldn't give the name but it starts with an s and ends with a l. now, the pre/amp combo was significantly better then my arc tube integrated with some types of music, many many times better in some cases. but i listen to a lot of vocals, female especially and lots jazz ... miles davis, bill evans, etc. when i would listen music i listen most i always preferred tubes. with vocals tubes just sounds better to me. yes, its distortion but to me it has more texture and definition and has a fuller richer sound then i would get with ss. yes, ss is much more detailed and sharper and has deeper base and is probably more accurate. but to me, to my ears prefer the tube sound better. i did this comparison because i need to replace my integrated amp soon and i am doing it once and was strongly considering this particular ss line.

i am going to have to save more money and move to arc ref stuff or get their new foundation line and then i am calling it good.

maybe the dart stuff is the exception. it is really interesting the hear the difference in what people prefer.

Why cant you discuss the brand?

For me as you say opinions , likes vary. ARC to me is on the SS side of tubes and Dart is on the tube side of SS. That said I also have some SET amps and love them with certain music mostly what you listed above.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,432
11,314
4,410
I am using an Audio Research Ref 5SE but thinking of leaving the wonderful world of tube electronics and going solid state. I need some help for such an important decision. Can anyone compare the sound of a Ref 5SE with the Dartzeel NHB-18NS preamplifier, not the latest model? My power amp is the Dartzeel NHB 108. Thanks.

your fellow countryman, Microstrip, has experience with Audio Research and the dart pre. you should ask him. although his ARC was the higher model, and his original dart pre was not the most updated. it got better over time, especially the volume control, charging system, and phono stages (there were 6 versions).

personally I prefer the original dart pre (I owned mine for 9 years and it was updated a few times) to what I hear from the ARC's. particularly when mated to the 108, which I owned for 7 years.....and the 108 got updated once.

yes; dart is like tubes in good ways, and like ss in good ways. I think it sounds like music and does not get in the way or overlay the music with it's own character.

but likely the best reason to get the original dart pre is that an upgrade to the newest astonishingly great sounding dart pre is a real great deal. and the new dart pre is as good as it gets....both as a pre and as a phono stage.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Count me as another vote for the darTZeel preamp. Even the original model beats anything that AR has ever produced, and likely will ever produce. Since you already have a 108, it's a no-brainer there...
 

Argonaut

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2013
2,362
1,602
530
N/A
Count me as another vote for the darTZeel preamp. Even the original model beats anything that AR has ever produced, and likely will ever produce. Since you already have a 108, it's a no-brainer there...

LoL! Dealer bigs up portfolio product, whilst demeaning competition not part of said portfolio shocKer , whoda thunk it!
Pure Class.
 

Cascais

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2012
257
2
150
Portugal
Aha, tempest in a tweeter. I have no beef with ARC, having enjoyed three ARC preamps, admire the build quality and customer service. Having run into problems lately with tubes, however, I feel it's time for a solid state preamp, and what better than a DartZeel.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Aha, tempest in a tweeter. I have no beef with ARC, having enjoyed three ARC preamps, admire the build quality and customer service. Having run into problems lately with tubes, however, I feel it's time for a solid state preamp, and what better than a DartZeel.

The ARC preamplifiers use the 6H30 tube, that is rugged and lasts for long - I only change them around 4500 hours. Most ARC equipment have a timer and show the hour count at the display or internally. When I owned the first version DartZeel I had to change the batteries twice - more recent units do not have this problem of early battery failure.

I have built great systems around both brands, mixed and not mixed. IMHO it is all dependent on source, speakers being used, cables and user preference. Ah, yes, fortunately the Duke of Mantua did not know about audiophiles ...
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
How does Dart compare to a Koda K10, because I have compared the K10 to an ARC Ref 10. Koda better control and separation, ARC muddied, slightly more airy. The power amp was a Koda driving Rockport Aviors. Personally, I don't want both, but would be interested to know the difference between a Dart and a Koda.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
How does Dart compare to a Koda K10, because I have compared the K10 to an ARC Ref 10. Koda better control and separation, ARC muddied, slightly more airy. The power amp was a Koda driving Rockport Aviors. Personally, I don't want both, but would be interested to know the difference between a Dart and a Koda.

Most probably the synergy between the Koda K10 and K70 was dominating the comparison - the K70 is a class A hybrid 50W amplifier with a characteristic sound signature, according to the Miller Audio Research measurements. I would never expect that the K70 would be a good match to the Aviors, known to be power hungry. But the audiophile world is filled with surprises!
 

Argonaut

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2013
2,362
1,602
530
N/A
How does Dart compare to a Koda K10, because I have compared the K10 to an ARC Ref 10. Koda better control and separation, ARC muddied, slightly more airy. The power amp was a Koda driving Rockport Aviors. Personally, I don't want both, but would be interested to know the difference between a Dart and a Koda.

So.....Stock Sovtek factory valve set in the Ref 10 I presume? Consider your beloved Big7 without ever having tube rolled! Were you aware of the hours on that particular unit ? the 10, as per most ARC pre's are a roller coaster ride for several hundreds of hours from Zero. Relative impedance matching between the two pre's and the amplification on the day?
 

etunes

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2012
64
25
925
Virginia Beach
If you end up going with V1 version of the Dart Pre highly recommend getting a later version . Better volume, Battery and Phono Stage.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
So.....Stock Sovtek factory valve set in the Ref 10 I presume? Consider your beloved Big7 without ever having tube rolled! Were you aware of the hours on that particular unit ? the 10, as per most ARC pre's are a roller coaster ride for several hundreds of hours from Zero. Relative impedance matching between the two pre's and the amplification on the day?

It was burnt in, that I confirmed. It is precisely because of the impedance that I actually mentioned the power amp, so that readers could have the relevant information. You are right, it could be different with different valves. But like I said, I don't want both. Just would like to compare the Dart to something once. The difference between those two different style preamps was too minimal to care about, especially as next day I went to listen to the Grands, and mind blown.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Aha, tempest in a tweeter. I have no beef with ARC, having enjoyed three ARC preamps, admire the build quality and customer service. Having run into problems lately with tubes, however, I feel it's time for a solid state preamp, and what better than a DartZeel.

Honestly, I don't know anything better than the new 18NS, but the Koda is one of the preamps that has caught my eye/ears, and I'd take a serious look at it. I don't know its current pricing, though, or even if it's available in your market.

As a darTZeel dealer (as if that was a bad thing to be...), and a long time customer, I think I know what works and what doesn't with it. Since you seem to want to keep your lovely 108, the 18NS is a great match. I've also tried the Constellation and Soulution preamps, the latter one also with built-in phonostage, and they were both splendid with the 108, worked beautifully, but I did end up preferring the 18NS for the added flexibility of the Zeel 50 ohm connection, that allowed me to move most of my setup to the side of the room, leaving only the amp (108) in between the speakers.
 

Cascais

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2012
257
2
150
Portugal
Honestly, I don't know anything better than the new 18NS, but the Koda is one of the preamps that has caught my eye/ears, and I'd take a serious look at it. I don't know its current pricing, though, or even if it's available in your market.

As a darTZeel dealer (as if that was a bad thing to be...), and a long time customer, I think I know what works and what doesn't with it. Since you seem to want to keep your lovely 108, the 18NS is a great match. I've also tried the Constellation and Soulution preamps, the latter one also with built-in phonostage, and they were both splendid with the 108, worked beautifully, but I did end up preferring the 18NS for the added flexibility of the Zeel 50 ohm connection, that allowed me to move most of my setup to the side of the room, leaving only the amp (108) in between the speakers.

I have been using ARC preamps (Ref 5 and 5se) with the 108 for about five or six years with good results as I like the combination of ss and tubes and always enjoy using the ARC, for flexibility as well as its sound. However now I am drawn to the elegance and reputation of the NHB 18NS, as well as the good reports I am getting on this thread. I haven't pulled the trigger on the deal yet and would probably wait for the new model except for the exorbitant price in Portugal with its 23% VAT. I will need the weekend to decide particularly since I made the mistake of changing the interconnect between CDp and preamp today and getting an improvement. This is a hard choice since it is not like moving up through a range of the same brand. The only way to solve the problem is to try the Dart in my system, not easy since the unit I am considering is not in the country.
 

Argonaut

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2013
2,362
1,602
530
N/A
Cascais, Is there any way that you might also audition the new Ref6 pre at half the price ? There are many quality pre's on the market, however staying with the brief, Were it I, then I would attempt to home demoat best, dealer demo if must, the darTZeel, ARC Ref6 and if at all feasible the ARC Ref10 for reference.
 

Cascais

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2012
257
2
150
Portugal
Cascais, Is there any way that you might also audition the new Ref6 pre at half the price ? There are many quality pre's on the market, however staying with the brief, Were it I, then I would attempt to home demoat best, dealer demo if must, the darTZeel, ARC Ref6 and if at all feasible the ARC Ref10 for reference.
Good advice and that is the way I usually buy as my dealer brings the piece to audition in my system for a number of days. Unfortunately the darTZeel is not in the country which means there is a question as to how it compares to the Ref 5SE. The 6 is an attractive alternative if I was just seeking some improvement in sound, but I'm operating to make a change from tubes to solid state. The fact is that the Ref 5SE suits me as at the moment I'm enjoying Rachmaninoff's 2nd symphony in SACD. I changed an interconnect yesterday which has produced a substantial improvement, so maybe I'll hold off for a while.
 

Argonaut

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2013
2,362
1,602
530
N/A
Good advice and that is the way I usually buy as my dealer brings the piece to audition in my system for a number of days. Unfortunately the darTZeel is not in the country which means there is a question as to how it compares to the Ref 5SE. The 6 is an attractive alternative if I was just seeking some improvement in sound, but I'm operating to make a change from tubes to solid state. The fact is that the Ref 5SE suits me as at the moment I'm enjoying Rachmaninoff's 2nd symphony in SACD. I changed an interconnect yesterday which has produced a substantial improvement, so maybe I'll hold off for a while.

Sensible approach, Should you have not tried any other valves than ARC factory I would urge you to acquire a tested NOS General Electric 6550A in your Ref5SE, your current pre has much more to give without the stock Sovtek 6550 which is glassy and 2 D in comparison!
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing