Does anyone still use the green pen?

Oct 15, 2016
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Again I don't see the sense in anything but black for all light absorption & yes the better the quality of the source disc the smaller effect of blacking out but it isn't hard to get 2 disc's compare them for equality & start scrubbing permanent black marker into one of them, then try different types of disc formats to see the difference (or better in a scientific sense, is there an effect on audio quality) of effect on the cd's. It really doesn't need to be a double blind test that you can on demand switch back & forth with, the difference is obvious from one to the other even if you have to open a drawer remove & replace. It's a fun project & don't forget the DVD's while your at it :) scuffing up the surface with 220 or 440 grit will make the marker take better & I would think the scratches breakup the glossy surface of the plastic for less inner reflection also but you loose being able to read the label though.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I wish all my CDs and DVDs would come like that...top picture. I don't know why we have to do it instead of the manufacturing plants?
And then they can add their own perfectly centered label on top of it, with all the music info we need plus a cool looking/colored design or picture.
It must have some to do with saving MONEY, ...so that way they can justifiably sacrifice sound quality?

I think music from our servers and iPhones and iPads is logistically simpler and can sound even better if recorded expertly with dexterity and with hi-res audio care...by the best music record engineers working for the best studio music record labels of the best music artist people with taste from the music genres they/we love best, and in multichannel too, not just mono and stereo.
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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You must realize that at the high rate of rpm, all the ink on the disk throws off the dynamic balance causing the disk to wobble slightly on the platter which sends spurious information to the laser.
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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I will just re-iterate here what I said years ago in post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...r-Distribution&p=172645&viewfull=1#post172645

I posted a video by Keith Johnson today; among other things, he talks about noise; I suggest watching around the 50 minute mark, and in the next 5 minutes you may get an idea how important eliminating noise can be; he also restates common-knowledge suggestions about keeping power cables away from signal and digital, how susceptible to noise digital cables can be, etc. Put another way, I don't think anyone can make an argument that noise has any part in high end audio. In the broader subject of everything being important and how carefully designers need to pay attention to details, another fascinating observation on jitter is his demo of the green pen on CD's and the measurable effect, unfortunately for the worst, as he shows...

You'll just have to dig up that video from back then, to see the jitter on his oscilloscope...

Bottom line: there are good reasons why many of us have been mocking these pens for decades.
 

Fiddle Faddle

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Aug 7, 2015
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Keith Johnson was the "guru" I was referring to in my previous post in this thread where I stated the pens caused jitter to increase.

In the video linked above, if you go to the exact point as per the link below, you will find him discussing the green pens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBR3kS4e_wk&feature=youtu.be&t=1896

I am not 100% certain I agree with him though as to why they increase jitter. His explanation is the solvent effect which physically compromises the disk (i.e warping). My own theory is that the stuff coming out of the Stoplight green pen is actual quite thick stuff - almost like Liquid Paper. If you truly want to uniformly coat the disc without leaving any clear spots, it is almost impossible to make that coating perfect - it is done by human hands using a pen that dispenses ink under tip pressure. You will inevitably get very tiny changes in coating thickness around the edge of the disk. As a result, I think this causes a very tiny imbalance in the disk - in the same way you can lose a tiny 10 gram weight from a 17 kilogram tyre and wheel and still feel the effect - the higher the speed the worse it is.

That theory also would explain why disks sometimes sound better - the imperfect coating might actually be improving the balance in an unbalanced disk in some cases. I actually think a more interesting test would be to test the balance of the disk at high speed (to exceptionally low / fine tolerances) before and after being coated. My feeling is that most of the time the balance will be worse after having been coated.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Keith Johnson was the "guru" I was referring to in my previous post in this thread where I stated the pens caused jitter to increase.

In the video linked above, if you go to the exact point as per the link below, you will find him discussing the green pens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBR3kS4e_wk&feature=youtu.be&t=1896

I am not 100% certain I agree with him though as to why they increase jitter. His explanation is the solvent effect which physically compromises the disk (i.e warping). My own theory is that the stuff coming out of the Stoplight green pen is actual quite thick stuff - almost like Liquid Paper. If you truly want to uniformly coat the disc without leaving any clear spots, it is almost impossible to make that coating perfect - it is done by human hands using a pen that dispenses ink under tip pressure. You will inevitably get very tiny changes in coating thickness around the edge of the disk. As a result, I think this causes a very tiny imbalance in the disk - in the same way you can lose a tiny 10 gram weight from a 17 kilogram tyre and wheel and still feel the effect - the higher the speed the worse it is.

That theory also would explain why disks sometimes sound better - the imperfect coating might actually be improving the balance in an unbalanced disk in some cases. I actually think a more interesting test would be to test the balance of the disk at high speed (to exceptionally low / fine tolerances) before and after being coated. My feeling is that most of the time the balance will be worse after having been coated.


Thanks for linking directly to the right place in that video (and yes, that's the video I had posted). As to sometimes things sounding better with the pen, I'd say you are suggesting that randomly applying the dye can improve the servo jitter - I'd just say there is an extremely low chance of striking the right balance, just by sheer happenstance.
 

Fiddle Faddle

Member
Aug 7, 2015
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Thanks for linking directly to the right place in that video (and yes, that's the video I had posted). As to sometimes things sounding better with the pen, I'd say you are suggesting that randomly applying the dye can improve the servo jitter - I'd just say there is an extremely low chance of striking the right balance, just by sheer happenstance.

I am saying that is one possibility but I already stated an unlikely one. I honestly think that scenario, however, is more likely than painting the edge of a CD causing warpage of the playing (as in laser reading) surface. It is not an unreasonable stretch that if you are treating 100 unbalanced disks, sooner or later you'll by sheer random chance end up putting more paint on the "lighter" side of one of them. It will obviously still be a significantly unbalanced disk, but it may not be as bad as it was before. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, the main mechanism, however, would be that the added jitter can make the sound subjectively more pleasant in certain circumstances. I heard that result enough times when I used the pen to know this is often the case, though in the majority of cases it makes things subjectively worse.
 
Oct 15, 2016
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I'm not comfortable with coating the working surface of a cd with a marker of any sort, the application can't be uniform enough not to cause varying thicknesses of material for the light to pass through. Spraying something clear on & wiping it off again? Sure, if it is to cause some effect to the surface that helps the lights direction in & out with less diffraction or reflections? Truing of the disc I have done & other than a disc that is obviously out of whack I didn't see/hear any gain from it, every disc I trued-up was out of perfect round to start with around the outside edge but there was no difference I could perceive & sold the lathe after a couple of years. As production standards seem to be waining I kind of kick myself because there seem to be an awful lot of disc's I can hear wobbling around in there now a days :eek: dvd/B-ray that is.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I found this: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0603/audiodesk.htm
________

I have some German made compact discs of the band 'Yello', and the outer ring is coated with a white/grey material...right @ the edge, looking from above and from the side.
They sound good by the way, I don't know if it's because they look well made, much better than most Canadian made CDs.
Japanese CDs are also better made.

CDs coming from Europe (ECM record label), Germany (Mercury), Japan (XRCD), USA (FIM, Channel Classics, Reference Recordings), are better made and sounding than all the average crap made in Canada and USA...in vast general.

The green/black markers (sharpies) are for the all the poorly pressed compact discs made in North America...roughly 98%.
Those discs I don't listen to them anymore, I tend to support music record labels that care for their customers with better sound quality from better pressings.
It's the exact same thing with vinyls...it's depressing all the crap they are pressing out there. How can the new young generations of audiophiles appreciate vinyls and CDs when the vast majority of them are simply unacceptable?
And that, is the reality we all live in.

What to do? Stop buying crap and only buy the best music pressings...in both analog (LPs, tapes) and digital (CDs, SACDs, Blu-ray Audio).
Yeah, Germany and Japan and Sweden and some parts of the USA are worth our precious music time. Most physical music medium are a disgrace. Those need alkl the help they could get...including more jitter, green pens, black markers, red glue, putting them in the freezer for few weeks, heating them in the oven between two marble plates @ 200° and for approximately 33 minutes. Or! You van simply trash them all; that way your life is easier and happier without the complications imposed upon you because of companies that are not into the business/passion of audio music quality but only maximum financial gains from inferior and poorly manufactured music recordings.

No wonder kids nowadays are opting for fiber optic audio transmission. I listened to kid's iPhones, the music downloads they have on them, and it is 155% superior to all the crappy record vinyls and CDs out there. Plus it costs less money.

Sure, if you know your products, where to get them, have the $$ to purchase them, if you are a high class music lover, then you already know what and what not to buy.
And if you need a green pen to help you out in this DNA age, then you're in the wrong music business/fire passion.

That's my take. Green pens or the trash bins? ...The later is much simpler and it permits people to discover the brighter side of life with newer and better music recordings.
The music we love we buy the best pressings; we keep re-buying it. And if we don't we play with green pens and black sharpies...perhaps 0.0000000000000000000000001% of us. Most likely less.

The day most music manufacturing plants are going to make good sounding quality products...that'll be the day.
 

Sablon Audio

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
May 22, 2015
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For those of you still keen on using CDs, try get a few discs trimmed using this lathe before applying your highlighter pen - www.audiodesksysteme.de/index.php/en/cd-sound-improver as an experiment.

I had one years ago and it helped reduce glare and improved dynamics. It was mildly amusing to operate, not unlike Des and Tech lessons at school, and nowhere near as boring as either ripping cds or treating with a nespa!
 

YashN

New Member
Jun 28, 2015
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Perhaps consider the alternative of ripping your CD library contents onto HDDs and SSDs instead.

However, be aware that some work is then transferred into optimising your computer audiophile setup if you do this (well worth it).

Another alternative: VRDS-Neo from Esoteric (needs a higher budget than the alternatives above).

It would be interesting if someone with a VRDS or a VRDS-Neo mechanism also tries the sharpie blackening and the edge chamfering and do some listening comparison.
 

Sablon Audio

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May 22, 2015
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Yash, this was several years ago before I went over to streaming and I had that very transport on my Upgrade Company modified X-01. The disc tray of that player was silver colour internally and lining it with adhesive black felt helped reduce glare further, presumably by controlling laser reflections.
 

jeromelang

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2011
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I once commissioned a SACD sampler, featuring tracks from Eva Cassidy (from the original cassette source) and Masekela (original dat source) - with a layer of green paint underneath the label artwork, and shipped 32,000 copies. That must be the biggest selling SACD disc ever!

The producers were reluctant to add the green paint layer, but I persisted, and with the ultimatum that they either add the green paint or the project is no go.

However that was when I was still enamoured with greening optical discs.

But once I've learnt to identify them by hearing, I found that I could no longer bear to listen to those discs.

And I had to re-purchase many of those discs that I've greened, at very much higher costs, as they were by then already out of print.
 

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