i suppose you have a valid point - if they can co-exist.
hopefully the nrl crowd will get into test cricket and single malts one day.
hopefully the nrl crowd will get into test cricket and single malts one day.
Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016
- Thread starter audioblazer
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Bonzo, do you really think that a preference can be defined correct or incorrect? A preference is a subjective matter, not an objective one. There have been dozens of famous Philosophers who wrote on this matter, but I think that the best sythesis is expressed by the famous latin motto "De gustibus non est disputandum" (in English it sounds as "it's not allowed to dispute on different tastes and preferences"). In my opinion If you, as a classical music listener, prefer Horns, you Are welcome! But it doesn't mean that your opinion is better than mine. I once again write: I don't remeber one experience with horns which was a full satisfaction! Sorry If my opinion, as classical music listener, is different from yours, but that's all.
I've written about my experiences as long time classical music lover becuase you asked me to argue on my personal taste and my preference for planar speakers, not to make a comparison between you and me.
In summary: I cannot exclude that someday I'll listen to a Horn Loudspeaker I get mad for, but up to date I can tell you that with Horns it never happened to me!
I've written about my experiences as long time classical music lover becuase you asked me to argue on my personal taste and my preference for planar speakers, not to make a comparison between you and me.
In summary: I cannot exclude that someday I'll listen to a Horn Loudspeaker I get mad for, but up to date I can tell you that with Horns it never happened to me!
Bonzo, do you really think that a preference can be defined correct or incorrect? A preference is a subjective matter, not an objective one. There have been dozens of famous Philosophers who wrote on this matter, but I think that the best sythesis is expressed by the famous latin motto "De gustibus non est disputandum" (in English it sounds as "it's not allowed to dispute on different tastes and preferences"). In my opinion If you, as a classical music listener, prefer Horns, you Are welcome! But it doesn't mean that your opinion is better than mine. I once again write: I don't remeber one experience with horns which was a full satisfaction! Sorry If my opinion, as classical music listener, is different from yours, but that's all.
Simone, extremely well written and expressed....beautiful!
Yep Simone, well put.
This forum should be called "What's Better", not "What's Best"
There ain't no "best" as far as I can see/hear.
This forum should be called "What's Better", not "What's Best"
There ain't no "best" as far as I can see/hear.
Bonzo, do you really think that a preference can be defined correct or incorrect? A preference is a subjective matter, not an objective one. There have been dozens of famous Philosophers who wrote on this matter, but I think that the best sythesis is expressed by the famous latin motto "De gustibus non est disputandum" (in English it sounds as "it's not allowed to dispute on different tastes and preferences"). In my opinion If you, as a classical music listener, prefer Horns, you Are welcome! But it doesn't mean that your opinion is better than mine. I once again write: I don't remeber one experience with horns which was a full satisfaction! Sorry If my opinion, as classical music listener, is different from yours, but that's all.
I've written about my experiences as long time classical music lover becuase you asked me to argue on my personal taste and my preference for planar speakers, not to make a comparison between you and me.
In summary: I cannot exclude that someday I'll listen to a Horn Loudspeaker I get mad for, but up to date I can tell you that with Horns it never happened to me!
Yes, except preference which makes blanket statements should be based on experience, hence I asked you your Horns experience before. You need live concert experience with the relevant gear experience. If not, your opinion is not based on relevant experience, that is all. I cannot, for example, given my analog gear experience, make a blanket statement that Ortofon A90 is the best cartridge because I listen to live concerts. I have compared 3 or 4 carts, which is similar in percentage terms to your horn experience. So it is not just one preference compared to another, it is one's experience as compared to another, backed by preference (which is also shaped partly by experience). From what you wrote, your horn experience is not sufficient to give credibility to your statement, and it is better for someone in your position to learn by gaining more experience.
That goes for What's better or best
The quote below is only valid if you are attempting to recreate the experience of a live concert in your home. I for one am NOT attempting to achieve that goal as I have come to a decision that these are two separate realities that will not ever coexist unless I bring live music into my living room. What I aspire to is to have a system that reproduces the music with a tone and scale that I prefer. My path/experience doesn't invalidate yours and vice-versa. During my time in audio I have determined that large horns and SET amplification float my boat better than anything else I have heard but truthfully I can listen to jsut about any system and as long as I like the music I will enjoy it.
It's rare that I hear a system where instruments can't be identified. Some systems capture the tone better than others for me but unless something's wrong I can generally tell a bassoon from an oboe.
Generally in online discussions I default to interpreting any statement to personal experience, i.e. it may sound like a blanket statement but it's not generally. Usually takes a couple of follow up posts to separate the trolls from the language barriers etc.
It's rare that I hear a system where instruments can't be identified. Some systems capture the tone better than others for me but unless something's wrong I can generally tell a bassoon from an oboe.
Generally in online discussions I default to interpreting any statement to personal experience, i.e. it may sound like a blanket statement but it's not generally. Usually takes a couple of follow up posts to separate the trolls from the language barriers etc.
Actually, Simone's point was that horns do not recreate realism of live, and therefore he does not like horns (based on not having heard enough horns), to which was my reply, so context was appropriate
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Bonzo, do you really think that a preference can be defined correct or incorrect? A preference is a subjective matter, not an objective one. There have been dozens of famous Philosophers who wrote on this matter, but I think that the best sythesis is expressed by the famous latin motto "De gustibus non est disputandum" (in English it sounds as "it's not allowed to dispute on different tastes and preferences"). In my opinion If you, as a classical music listener, prefer Horns, you Are welcome! But it doesn't mean that your opinion is better than mine. I once again write: I don't remeber one experience with horns which was a full satisfaction! Sorry If my opinion, as classical music listener, is different from yours, but that's all.
I've written about my experiences as long time classical music lover becuase you asked me to argue on my personal taste and my preference for planar speakers, not to make a comparison between you and me.
In summary: I cannot exclude that someday I'll listen to a Horn Loudspeaker I get mad for, but up to date I can tell you that with Horns it never happened to me!
Simone,
One isolated preference can not be defined as correct or incorrect, but can be debated. When we express a preference we usually state the reasons why and other people can appreciate if our preference looks reasonable or not. No opinion is better than the other one, but IMHO some can be better grounded than others. BTW, I am a firm believer in the "positive qualities" - in high-end our preferences are usually established by a few things that we find exceptional in a system than by a few shortcomings that we usually find acceptable and do not bother us.
I am less fortunate than you - long ago I had the same opinion as you about horns, but once listened to exceptionally good sound from an all Avantgarde system - no chance of being an horn disbeliever anymore.
Preference can be statistically analyzed if we debate a large group of individual preferences. Than we can be tempted to say that something sounds better just because it pleases the average preference. But it is just a "statistical" better! For example, Martin Logan or Quad speakers are probably "better" if we just sample the community of owners of electrostatic speakers ...
Just my .02 on preference.
Bonzo, I haven't introduced me as a famous journalist or an international expertise. There is no loudspeakers factory which ask my illuminate opinion before commercializing either a new horn system or an electrostat panel.
I am a simple "amateur de la musique", a music lover with my opinions which are not "universally valid Laws, Rules and Regulations".
Nevertheless how can you affirm that I haven't enough experience with horn systems? I've just written in my second post on this thread, answering your questions, that it's more than 30 years I'm listening to horn loudspeakers, in private set-up as well in Hi-End shows. My listening experience include Altec, Klipsh, JBL, Avantgarde, Acapella, Cessaro and many many more horn systems.
Mutual respect is foundamental in a Forum like this one, WBF, and even If your experience is probably more extensive than mine and your opinions most-founded than mine, as I read your posts carefully before answering you should also carefully read my posts before reaching hasty conclusions.
Having said that, friends as before! and we take as well the discussion, which concerned the best systems heard in Munich Hi End 2016.
By the way, do troubles and limitations in a room of a Hi End show concern only horn systems, in order that I cannot express a correct opinion on best sounding systems of the show? The debate is open....
I am a simple "amateur de la musique", a music lover with my opinions which are not "universally valid Laws, Rules and Regulations".
Nevertheless how can you affirm that I haven't enough experience with horn systems? I've just written in my second post on this thread, answering your questions, that it's more than 30 years I'm listening to horn loudspeakers, in private set-up as well in Hi-End shows. My listening experience include Altec, Klipsh, JBL, Avantgarde, Acapella, Cessaro and many many more horn systems.
Mutual respect is foundamental in a Forum like this one, WBF, and even If your experience is probably more extensive than mine and your opinions most-founded than mine, as I read your posts carefully before answering you should also carefully read my posts before reaching hasty conclusions.
Having said that, friends as before! and we take as well the discussion, which concerned the best systems heard in Munich Hi End 2016.
By the way, do troubles and limitations in a room of a Hi End show concern only horn systems, in order that I cannot express a correct opinion on best sounding systems of the show? The debate is open....
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Show limitations affect all gears, and show impressions can be often incorrect. Just to let you know, I don't like some of the horns you mentioned in your post above. But even then all those horns are very different from each other.
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What they need to do is provide the right incentives. T20 players should get a.much higher pay if they are in the rest 15, then test 25, and then drop much lower.
Otherwise there will be no incentive for youngsters to train their footwork for tests
Michael Fremer interviewing perhaps Rainer himself; the tangential tonearm Dereneville DTT-02 designer.
Yes he was: ?
Published on May 13, 2016
On set-up day at Munich High End 2016 Analogplanet.com editor Michael Fremer encountered Tone Tool Dereneville DTT 02 tone arm designer Rainer Horstmann with his disassembled arm in a box. On Saturday he watched the arm in action on the Tone Tool Sprocket turntable. There was no way to hear it, but there's always next year! And check out the other Tone Tool turntables on display.
________
Edit (correction): The TT alone is 110,000 Euros (MSRP). That is mentioned @ the end of the video.
And the tangential tracking tonearm alone (120,000 mentioned in the above video was a mistake) is 80,000 Euros.
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Simone, you've heard plenty of horns. You like a lot of what horns do well, but they don't ring true to you from what you're aware of from live music. De facto you haven't chosen horns. I don't even see why your statement needs to be debated.
For me, horns really do present the live experience thrill more than anything I know, Cessaro Gammas at Munich being a case in point. And that's another view. Mutual exclusivity in our views doesn't mean we can't be inclusive in agreeing to have different preferences.
Maybe "What's Best" should be renamed "What's Right"?
For me, horns really do present the live experience thrill more than anything I know, Cessaro Gammas at Munich being a case in point. And that's another view. Mutual exclusivity in our views doesn't mean we can't be inclusive in agreeing to have different preferences.
Maybe "What's Best" should be renamed "What's Right"?
Then his statement should read having heard horns A, B and C I don't like them. He definitely hasn't heard a lot of them, and with the sample names he had mentioned, I would in many cases agree with his views on those horns
From the Burmester room
New reference speaker Consept 500 with new 159 monoblocks. Massive componentes ;-) Sounded really good. Its possible to turn part of the side out for a live mode. The reference 500 are related to weight of the speaker and it is one and kg. Need a crane to move it...
New reference speaker Consept 500 with new 159 monoblocks. Massive componentes ;-) Sounded really good. Its possible to turn part of the side out for a live mode. The reference 500 are related to weight of the speaker and it is one and kg. Need a crane to move it...
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Hi
I am a Burmester fan and always found their entire line to sound stellar. Currently waffling and going back and forth about acquiring my dream preamp the 808...
Burmester has always had a flair for good aesthetics, but what's up with that zebra pattern on the side of the speakers? UGLY as hell! over the top if you ask me and those hooks on top of the speakers?
I am a Burmester fan and always found their entire line to sound stellar. Currently waffling and going back and forth about acquiring my dream preamp the 808...
Burmester has always had a flair for good aesthetics, but what's up with that zebra pattern on the side of the speakers? UGLY as hell! over the top if you ask me and those hooks on top of the speakers?
Well I see your point however I dont think they are quite ready yet. With reference to the hooks on top and on the backside, not seen in photos, I guess they need it to move the speakers. They are massive and weights ap 500 kg .....
One other thing see the elements in front, they have been adjusted upwards in the live mode.
..... One other thing see the elements in front, they have been adjusted upwards in the live mode.
Benzo, I know it may cause you a big sorrow, but I have a huge and exstensive experience in listening horn systems. And I usually do not like them very much, with some exceptions, but even those exceptions aren't at top of my list of preferenred loudspeakers.
I've told you that probably is because I am a musician and a lover of classical music. You probably have never heard a live concert of classical music in your life, and this is is why you prefer horn systems.
No Bonzo, please, do not insist in saying that you go every week to live concerts at Barbican or Covent Garden, because I don't trust you.... Just in the same way you don't trust me when I say that I have a huge experience in listening horn systems...
The best Horn System in Munich HiEnd 2016 for me was the JBL Everest loudspeakers (one of those exceptions I spoke of before).
In Munich these loudspeakers sounded very smooth and realistic, probably thanks to an "all Mark Levinson" electronics and Server-DAC which drove them beautifully.
In Munich these loudspeakers sounded very smooth and realistic, probably thanks to an "all Mark Levinson" electronics and Server-DAC which drove them beautifully.
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