Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

audio-land

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Johan, that sounds about right. Tbh, the Gammas were taking up the very full width of the room w/just centimetres to spare, the room was most likely too small for such a beast, thin walls, ambient noise from outside, and the TW Black Knight tt was sitting smack bang in front of the output from one of the giant basshorns. I'm not suprised Ralph dialled the bass down.
For me the Cessaro demo was a true highlight - it sounded pretty average on the Friday, but on Saturday it was really singing. Ked's lp of Scheherazade was spookilly lifelike.
Hi Marc, thank you for visiting two days and hope you enjoyed the show.
 

audio-land

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Thanks Johan for the feedback. I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt given the size of the speaker and the proximity to the room. Perhaps I haven't yet heard one that "fit" the room. To be sure, the bass was light but also to be sure it was a conscious choice by whomever set up the room. The sound was overall very good but whatever I heard I heard only with male vocals. Other music sounded quite good.

I would be interested in hearing the new "small" Cessaro the Wagner. This would stand a chance of actually working in my home environment. Can you tell me what the price is of the new speaker? Where could I hear it living in Switzerland?
Hi Morricab, let us check the nearest of new wagner and PM you. For the right room, they are stellar.
 

Jazzhead

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Give me a break dude. Stop being condescending to musical taste.

Very true . No point in pigeon holing oneself to one genre , danger of becoming a one trick pony . No genre is superior to the other , all down to personal taste . Enjoy your music.
 

bonzo75

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Give me a break dude. Stop being condescending to musical taste.

Actually, it's not about being condescending (only), but also about evaluation. I have heard a few well-known branded speakers which sounded brilliant on amplified music, but failed big time on tonality of acoustic music, giving a plastic sound (and no, I am not going to name brands).

The other thing is, especially with electronics, where I like tone, soundstage, etc, many congest when 50 instruments are thrown in. They do fine with 4.
 

morricab

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Hi Morricab, let us check the nearest of new wagner and PM you. For the right room, they are stellar.

Sounds good. From a size perspective, they are very similar to my Odeon "La Boheme" speakers, which are a few cm shorter than the Wagner. Same design concept though, paper mid/bass driver to a horn loaded tweeter (like the older Chopin, mine is solid wood and not a composite like the newest Wagner horn). The main difference I see is cabinet styling and that mine has a 10 inch driver vs. and 8 inch driver for the Cessaro. Sensitivity and load are nearly the same though. I am suspicous though of the bass claim of 30 Hz. Based on the math, I don't see a long enough horn to really get that low. Mine are fine to the mid 40Hz range, which is about right for the folded horn length. A true 30Hz would need to be longer than 3 meters and based on the height and depth of the Wagner I don't see 3+ meters folded up inside. Maybe there is SOME output there but down 15-20db??

For a comparison, the RDacoustic (new Czech company) backloaded horn is a full 1.8 meters tall and they told me it has a total horn length of 2.7 meters. It made some seriously good bass but based on their measurements it was still only good to around 40Hz or slightly below with significant output.

Not to bash Cessaro on their specs but 30Hz seems very optimistic to me for the Wagner. Still I want to hear it and see what, if any, improvement it has over my significantly less expensive (about 20K when new) Odeons of a very similar design. I look forward to being blown away! However, I have to admit that I find the price (I saw 65K) to be extremely high for such a speaker.
 

Simone Leroy

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I enjoyed so much Munich Hi-End of this year, and after a "full-immersion" 3 days of countinous listening I had my "best of the rooms". Reading this thread I noted that I must have strange preferences, because my top list is completely different from the others posted here till now.
1) The absolute winner is the system assembled by Mark Johansen using only his cables Silenzio and Zensati. There was a Digital source, a DCS Vivaldi I suppose (but I ma not sure and wait confirmation from anyone of you); I couldn't ever recognize pre-amplifier and power amplifiers but the sound of the swiss oudspeakers Stenheim Reference was breathtaking and effortlessy life-like.
Someone whispered in my ears the cost of loudspeakers only, but I couldn't believe that it is more than 1 million of euros...
2) The second step of my private podium is for the system which included CH Precisions electronics and Magico M7 loudspekers, which was perfectly balanced between a spectacular sound and a detailed and correct reproduction of all kind and genre of Music (by the way too small classical music was played in every room, and only with classical music I can understand if a system is really good enough! Sorry for this limitation of mine...)
3) The third place is for Costellation electronics-Martin Logan Neolith loudspekers, a wonderful set up but the excess of basses, probably due to the acoustical limitations of the room, was a little bit annoying. I had listened the exactly same system few months ago, the same except for the digital source: here in Muniche them missed the Berkeley Reference DAC (and the sound I recall was really far better than the one listened this year in Munich without this magic DAC).
A honour mention is for Vivid Audio Gya loudspekers perfectly controlled by CH electronics.
No horns in my list, because with classical music and human voices horns usually sound "not natural" to my ears which Are used to the sound of the best concerthalls and orchestras of all over the world.
Zellaton loudspekers nice but the electronics Made that set up a little bit too much aggressive. The same problems had the Rheido Spekers, conducted by electronics not of the same lignage and nobilty. All the room equipped with Wilson loudspekers sounded nice and correct, but none of those system took away my heart!
 

bonzo75

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Very strange. Which horns have you heard, in private set ups?

Also did you use your own demo tracks to judge at the show?
 

Argonaut

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Very strange. Which horns have you heard, in private set ups?

Also did you use your own demo tracks to judge at the show?

Strange! For what reason bonzo? Unless you are inferring that the above respondant is incorrect in his opinion and has erred away from your world view Status Quo.

(Other Hair n Denim Rock Bands are available )

Or perhaps, like our dealer friend from Barrington, Illinois, he considers the additional harmonic distortions imparted via an DHT source and Horns, tho pleasant, to be less accurate in the reproduction of an Live classical concert event given his real life expeareance?
 
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bonzo75

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Strange! For what reason bonzo? Unless you are inferring that the above respondant is incorrect in his opinion and has erred away from your world view Status Quo.

(Other Hair n Denim Rock Bands are available )

Or perhaps, like our dealer friend from Barrington, Illinois, he considers the additional harmonic distortions imparted via an DHT source and Horns, tho pleasant, to be less accurate in the reproduction of an Live classical concert event given his real life expeareance?

So, can we wait for him to respond about his experience with horns in private set ups instead of shows?
 

wisnon

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I enjoyed so much Munich Hi-End of this year, and after a "full-immersion" 3 days of countinous listening I had my "best of the rooms". Reading this thread I noted that I must have strange preferences, because my top list is completely different from the others posted here till now.
1) The absolute winner is the system assembled by Mark Johansen using only his cables Silenzio and Zensati. There was a Digital source, a DCS Vivaldi I suppose (but I ma not sure and wait confirmation from anyone of you); I couldn't ever recognize pre-amplifier and power amplifiers but the sound of the swiss oudspeakers Stenheim Reference was breathtaking and effortlessy life-like.
Someone whispered in my ears the cost of loudspeakers only, but I couldn't believe that it is more than 1 million of euros...
Simone, the cost of the 4 box Stenheim Ref Statement is USD$500K. I got this figure from the owner himself, so am certain.

See my report from last year here: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/11/27/a-visit-with-the-stenheim-reference-statement/
 

Simone Leroy

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Wisnon thanks for your informatio! Probably the "whisper" referred the amount (more than 1 million of Euro) of the entire system!
I appreciated your report on Stenheim event you linked and I had your same feelings.
My only concern of that special room assembled by Mark Johansen is that I couldn't see what DAC and what electronics were in use!
If someone has information on this issue, please let me know!
 

Simone Leroy

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Bonzo it is more than 30 years that I had my first experience with horns in private set up. I was 15 yrs old and my best friend's daddy was the owner of a system based on Klipshhorn loudspeakers, a Linn Sondek turntable with a SME tonearm and a Stanton 681 EEE cartridge and old Marantz Tubes Pre and Power amplifier and I enjoed it very much. But also at that time I attended every week to a concert or an opera at the Opera House of my town, Maggio Musicale Fiorentino in Florence-Italy, where the main conductor at that time was Riccardo Muti, and I realized that the sound of that horn system was "different" from what I listened at the opera House! One year later I listened to a Hi-Fi system based on Dalhquist DQ10 loudspeakers, with the same turntable and the same tubes electronics and... I fell in love with those loudspeakers! Because I felt they were so natural in reproducing the orchestra and the human voices. And later I fell in love with Stax electrostatics loudspekers, with Acoustat , with Beveridge, with Snell, with Magnepan .... So you can see I am more an "electrostic guy" than a "horn guy", probably because at home I need to listen to a sound which has to be similar to what I'm used to listen to at Opera House (nowadays here in Florence we Have Zubin Mehta as main conductor...).
Coming to recent years, few weeks ago I listened to the Acapella best horn system at a good friend's home. A wonderful and very expensive system, based esclusively on a turntable as source, latest SME model, with LAMM electronics. Everything so beautiful, so thrilling and compelling...but far from what I like! Probably it's because I am a classical music listener, and I know how a piano Steinway sounds, different from a Bosendorfer or from a Yamaha gran coda.... and in my "audiophile" life I'm always looking for a system able to reproduce with fidelty these nuances, without inventing new sounds or adjucting nice euphonic colours....
 

wisnon

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Wisnon thanks for your informatio! Probably the "whisper" referred the amount (more than 1 million of Euro) of the entire system!
I appreciated your report on Stenheim event you linked and I had your same feelings.
My only concern of that special room assembled by Mark Johansen is that I couldn't see what DAC and what electronics were in use!
If someone has information on this issue, please let me know!

You are welcome.

Here is the Munich 2015 report: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/06/05/high-end-2015-stenheim-shakes-the-foundations/
 

bonzo75

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Bonzo it is more than 30 years that I had my first experience with horns in private set up. I was 15 yrs old and my best friend's daddy was the owner of a system based on Klipshhorn loudspeakers, a Linn Sondek turntable with a SME tonearm and a Stanton 681 EEE cartridge and old Marantz Tubes Pre and Power amplifier and I enjoed it very much. But also at that time I attended every week to a concert or an opera at the Opera House of my town, Maggio Musicale Fiorentino in Florence-Italy, where the main conductor at that time was Riccardo Muti, and I realized that the sound of that horn system was "different" from what I listened at the opera House! One year later I listened to a Hi-Fi system based on Dalhquist DQ10 loudspeakers, with the same turntable and the same tubes electronics and... I fell in love with those loudspeakers! Because I felt they were so natural in reproducing the orchestra and the human voices. And later I fell in love with Stax electrostatics loudspekers, with Acoustat , with Beveridge, with Snell, with Magnepan .... So you can see I am more an "electrostic guy" than a "horn guy", probably because at home I need to listen to a sound which has to be similar to what I'm used to listen to at Opera House (nowadays here in Florence we Have Zubin Mehta as main conductor...?).
Coming to recent years, few weeks ago I listened to the Acapella best horn system at a good friend's home. A wonderful and very expensive system, based esclusively on a turntable as source, latest SME model, with LAMM electronics. Everything so beautiful, so thrilling and compelling...but far from what I like! Probably it's because I am a classical music listener, and I know how a piano Steinway sounds, different from a Bosendorfer or from a Yamaha gran coda.... and in my "audiophile" life I'm always looking for a system able to reproduce with fidelty these nuances, without inventing new sounds or adjucting nice euphonic colours....

Hi, I am a fan of acoustats, quads, owned Martin Logans, heard Maggies (not 20.7), and like SOME horns more. Some horns not at all. Some horns do something much better than any stat in terms of live realism. I have had a lot of experience with Acapella, Cessaros, Tune Audio Animas, JBLs, Western Electrics, and very recently with Siemens Bionor, all these in private set ups, not to mention the ones at shows.

Regarding classical concerts, I go to one a week. I will be at Beethoven's 9th with the LSO and Michael Tilson Thomas tonight at the Barbican. I was at Concertgebouw a couple of weekends ago. Last month I was watching Simon Rattle with Bruckner 6th on the 22nd, Bruckner 8th on the 14th, and watched another show of Mahler 2nd on the 12th, not to mention that I have another Mahler 2nd next month on the 5th. So, now that we have got out who has the bigger swinging d, I can confidently tell you that you are incorrect. You just need to hear the right horns. You can find issues with bass integration and stuff, but not that they blanket do not sound more real. Horns are also much more different from each other than any two panels, let alone any two stats.
 

bonzo75

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Wait away Old Boy! Wait away. More interested in Sunrisers Vs Daredevils myself.

As you know, I am a classical guy. Likewise, I am a Test Cricket guy, this T20 is the equivalent of rap. Did you expect me to be snobbish only on music?
 

Argonaut

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As you know, I am a classical guy. Likewise, I am a Test Cricket guy, this T20 is the equivalent of rap. Did you expect me to be snobbish only on music?

Oh,,,I thought that you only listened to your one recording of Scheherazade ;)

I can confidently tell you that you are quite correct in offering your own considered opinion

FIxed that for you, no thanks required ;)

For my part I Love all forms of Cricket, even Baseball, which is why I am a member of a box syndicate at Lords, perhaps if you were to wear a silly hat and wave a lot I might spot you down below, during the Sri Lanka and Pakistan tests this summer.
 

bonzo75

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For my part I Love all forms of Cricket, even Baseball, which is why I am a member of a box syndicate at Lords, perhaps if you were to wear a silly hat and wave a lot I might spot you down below, during the Sri Lanka and Pakistan tests this summer.

I have played 2 matches on the Lords nursery ground, and used to do nets at Lords regularly on weekends. I lost a bit of interest in cricket after KP was dropped. I support players and not countries and never supported England till I saw him play in the ODI series that was a precursor to Ashes 2005. Before that I supported the Aussies till Steve Waugh retired.
 

analog brother

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T20 cricket is the lowest form of all sport.
no strategy nor grace, just smash the ball, take risks and satiate the loaded-masses' ADD trait, and craving for fried chicken.
then send them home in the traffic jam.

dilute, condense and homogenise all sport for mass consumption and return per/hr. that's where we are heading..

luckily these flash marketing types weren't 'round in wagner's day to convince him to do a 15 minute opera!
 

fas42

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T20 cricket is the lowest form of all sport.
no strategy nor grace, just smash the ball, take risks and satiate the loaded-masses' ADD trait, and craving for fried chicken.
then send them home in the traffic jam.
I dispute the need to lay into T20 - the cricketing organisations need to be realistic about the future, they must provide the type of "entertainment" that will attract new crowds, otherwise the sport will endanger itself. So long as all forms remain fully viable, are fully vital in their core then everything will be fine - the youngbloods need their adrenalin rush, but will move onto the more interesting formats as they age ...

Teenagers hit the beer trail when young, then appreciate the subtleties of spirits when older - it's good that both are around ....
 

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