Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

Sure Morricab, that's a great advert for the LV, I guess. I know Ked goes to a lot of live classical, maybe he can chime in on how he thinks the LV compares.
For me, I just became hyper aware of the tweeter horns and the sound didn't seem holistic. That's all I'm going to say on them. But good to know they compare to live favourably. IMHO, tone is hard to get right, and maybe they excel here if yr words are correct.

Are you saying the Gammas in the Cessaro room had this honk, or Cessaros in general? There's a member prominent on these forums who loves the immediacy and dynamics of horns, but still feels there's a veil over vocals w.horns that ribbons (his personal choice) don't impart. I'm not a massive vocals fan, so I can't say I know what he means. But at Euros450k, horn honk is not what you want.

For me, I'm on a bit of a hunt for a good pair of horns, and my search is whittling down to AG Duos/Trios w. B'horns. There are some interesting left field choices incl the Martion Orgons, Haigner Alpha- and Gamma-horns, and Staccato horns, but I'll have to audition in Europe and the US if I want to investigate further. Unless you have some suggestions...

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

Fly to Leipzig to listen to the WE 16A with GIP drivers. They have no similarity to the 11A in Munich

Regarding between ribbons and horns, for me it's horns all the way till you hit the big restored apogees, then it's the Apogees.

For small to medium rooms, where you have no choice but to live with compromises, I would pick Acoustats, Quads, horns autotech (IMO these are way way superior to duos, unos, and smaller brethren of big SOTA horns) and stenheims, but the latter two to be demoed properly.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

Ked, did you really like the Autotechs? I found them a little on the spotlit end of the spectrum, again w/some challenging bass issues. Worth an audition in the UK?

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, did you really like the Autotechs? I found them a little on the spotlit end of the spectrum, again w/some challenging bass issues. Worth an audition in the UK?

As I mentioned in one of my posts, the thing to check for in a proper demo is the weight and the bass. They were in an extremely bass light room. But the naturalness, detail, flow and musicality was very nice. The ortofon A95 probably helped (I have previously liked the Ortofon A90, liked the quintet black at the show as well. Even at Steve's, I liked the Ortofon Anna though the Zyx Universe Premium was both superior and much more expensive).

What is the meaning of spotlit in hifi jargon?

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

Oh, just a tendency to accentuate detail. Often apparent when the top end is a little prominent.
Again, musical choice wan't helping matters. If I reattend, I'll bring a handful of lp's w/me.

morricab · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Sure Morricab, that's a great advert for the LV, I guess. I know Ked goes to a lot of live classical, maybe he can chime in on how he thinks the LV compares.
For me, I just became hyper aware of the tweeter horns and the sound didn't seem holistic. That's all I'm going to say on them. But good to know they compare to live favourably. IMHO, tone is hard to get right, and maybe they excel here if yr words are correct.

Are you saying the Gammas in the Cessaro room had this honk, or Cessaros in general? There's a member prominent on these forums who loves the immediacy and dynamics of horns, but still feels there's a veil over vocals w.horns that ribbons (his personal choice) don't impart. I'm not a massive vocals fan, so I can't say I know what he means. But at Euros450k, horn honk is not what you want.

For me, I'm on a bit of a hunt for a good pair of horns, and my search is whittling down to AG Duos/Trios w. B'horns. There are some interesting left field choices incl the Martion Orgons, Haigner Alpha- and Gamma-horns, and Staccato horns, but I'll have to audition in Europe and the US if I want to investigate further. Unless you have some suggestions...

Tone is a big part of it and for me that is one of the most important aspects of getting sound reproduction correct. No tone, no good, IMO. This is why I have big issues with most SS based systems. Tone is often not natural but also a lot of tubes get it more or less wrong.

You should give the Odeon No. 32 or the No. 38 a try. They have a conventional bass driver, so there is plenty of bass grunt that you seem to crave. The overall sensitivity is 95 and 96db and they are an easy load. Horn mid is a big solid wood design and the tweeter horn is also a solid wood design. Little to no coloration from the horn loading. Nice immediacy and dynamics. Bass is in the upper 20s. They are the first horn speakers I ever heard that didn't have the usual horn colorations. They are still in a rather select group for that, IMO.

As to Cessaro, I continue to be underwhelmed by them despite the clearly ambitious design and implementation. I also find them often bass shy, don't know if that is the set up or not because the bass horns are fully active and SHOULD be able to make massive bass like the AG active bass horns. I found the "honk" to me overall mild but noticeable as also a bit of veiling. I don't know if it is with all models because I thought the Liszt didn't have honk per se but it is using a mid bass driver that is not front horn loaded, which is more susceptible to honk from my experience.

You should definitely also consider the Aries Cerat horn speaker. This was killer when I heard it in 2014. They actually figured out how to horn load a ribbon tweeter. They were open, fast and transparent. Bass might be a bit light for you though since you are using those Zu Dimensions, which have active bass built in don't they?

The best sounding AG set up I heard was last year where Sound Galleries had Duo Omegas with Audiopax amps/preamp and Lampizator Golden Gate. That was a sound I could live with! I have never heard Trios sound correct. Guitars come out 2 meters wide and vocals 1 meter wide and the whole thing is disconnected (unlike what I hear from LV, which is well focused and life sized). A Duo Mezzo (with integrated horn bass) might be the ticket though. However, i have an issue with their floppy plastic horns. They are simply not rigid enough to prevent resonances and you can sometimes hear this as a veiling, particularly in the mid horn (again the tricky one because it is relatively large and therefore flexible).

The Martion Orgon is an amazing sounding speaker but not the last word in tone because it is a fully active design and they are not using the best electronics that a horn like that deserves. Still, I had a very favorable experience with it some years ago.

morricab · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
As I mentioned in one of my posts, the thing to check for in a proper demo is the weight and the bass. They were in an extremely bass light room. But the naturalness, detail, flow and musicality was very nice. The ortofon A95 probably helped (I have previously liked the Ortofon A90, liked the quintet black at the show as well. Even at Steve's, I liked the Ortofon Anna though the Zyx Universe Premium was both superior and much more expensive).

What is the meaning of spotlit in hifi jargon?

I agree, the AutoTechs were very good overall and would be my choice at the show for an under 30K speaker. Very well integrated for a three-way horn...however, i think the Odeon No. 32 is every bit as good for about the same money...and it is even more room friendly. Sadly, Odeon was not demoing at the show...a big no no IMO for a German company. However, they have been around for nearly 30 years so I guess they do ok without the hype.

For under 15K it would be the Czech RDacoustic single driver in a big backloaded horn. A very good conventional choice is the Acoustic Zen Crescendo, which sounded also very immediate and correct tonally with really good bass. I prefer these to the Wilson Alexias.

KeithR · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
A big lesson I learnt was that despite my love for horns, they presented varying levels of compromise. Except one. The LV's and Animas fell apart playing rock, the Cessaro Beta's/B'horns despite being beyond thrilling and realistic on orchestral and jazz had no real bass propulsion, and I wonder how much rhythmn/timing on rock would be compromised by that.
Indeed, only the AG room, playing the Uno XD's, seemed to get the balance right, getting horn "rightness" w/true capability of playing rock/electronica etc. Certainly their demo was the best one for horns across different genres of music.

Spirit- how was the integration on the new XD version of the Uno? that always has been that speaker's achilles heal as the horn crosses over much higher than the Duo.

audio-land · May 10, 2016

!

morricab said:
Tone is a big part of it and for me that is one of the most important aspects of getting sound reproduction correct. No tone, no good, IMO. This is why I have big issues with most SS based systems. Tone is often not natural but also a lot of tubes get it more or less wrong.

You should give the Odeon No. 32 or the No. 38 a try. They have a conventional bass driver, so there is plenty of bass grunt that you seem to crave. The overall sensitivity is 95 and 96db and they are an easy load. Horn mid is a big solid wood design and the tweeter horn is also a solid wood design. Little to no coloration from the horn loading. Nice immediacy and dynamics. Bass is in the upper 20s. They are the first horn speakers I ever heard that didn't have the usual horn colorations. They are still in a rather select group for that, IMO.

As to Cessaro, I continue to be underwhelmed by them despite the clearly ambitious design and implementation. I also find them often bass shy, don't know if that is the set up or not because the bass horns are fully active and SHOULD be able to make massive bass like the AG active bass horns. I found the "honk" to me overall mild but noticeable as also a bit of veiling. I don't know if it is with all models because I thought the Liszt didn't have honk per se but it is using a mid bass driver that is not front horn loaded, which is more susceptible to honk from my experience.

You should definitely also consider the Aries Cerat horn speaker. This was killer when I heard it in 2014. They actually figured out how to horn load a ribbon tweeter. They were open, fast and transparent. Bass might be a bit light for you though since you are using those Zu Dimensions, which have active bass built in don't they?

The best sounding AG set up I heard was last year where Sound Galleries had Duo Omegas with Audiopax amps/preamp and Lampizator Golden Gate. That was a sound I could live with! I have never heard Trios sound correct. Guitars come out 2 meters wide and vocals 1 meter wide and the whole thing is disconnected (unlike what I hear from LV, which is well focused and life sized). A Duo Mezzo (with integrated horn bass) might be the ticket though. However, i have an issue with their floppy plastic horns. They are simply not rigid enough to prevent resonances and you can sometimes hear this as a veiling, particularly in the mid horn (again the tricky one because it is relatively large and therefore flexible).

The Martion Orgon is an amazing sounding speaker but not the last word in tone because it is a fully active design and they are not using the best electronics that a horn like that deserves. Still, I had a very favorable experience with it some years ago.

Hi Morricab, thank you for the comment and visit. Gamma on Munich is an active F4 front loaded bass horn (F4 means total 4 driver for a stereo). With regards of F8, they are the fastest and most realistic bass we have heard, trust us, we play it from single whispering vocal to the darkest genre that barely heard for a few of us at a high level. Shy is the last thing those beast call for producing the lowest octave. As we mentioned previously, Ralph always set them 2 level gain below our preference and type of music. You and us may have the same preference. Again, F4 you had heard was an fully active, gain level, x over, phase, boost, etc. If you fell they were shy, they were set to be.

We have never heard honkiness on Cessaro horns. We have tested Cessaro horns with shouting from the horn's throat (without driver) and it was an amazing experience. It could be recording or room but it was not the horn for sure.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

Johan, that sounds about right. Tbh, the Gammas were taking up the very full width of the room w/just centimetres to spare, the room was most likely too small for such a beast, thin walls, ambient noise from outside, and the TW Black Knight tt was sitting smack bang in front of the output from one of the giant basshorns. I'm not suprised Ralph dialled the bass down.
For me the Cessaro demo was a true highlight - it sounded pretty average on the Friday, but on Saturday it was really singing. Ked's lp of Scheherazade was spookilly lifelike.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

KeithR said:
Spirit- how was the integration on the new XD version of the Uno? that always has been that speaker's achilles heal as the horn crosses over much higher than the Duo.

Keith, the Uno is not quite my cup of tea, too high a x/over setting for sure. AG still remains the best compromise for horn/dynamic bass integration I've heard, and I'm sure the XD tech takes this a step further. So some of the best sounds from a horn for dance/ambient/dub/alt rock etc. And the Duos XD remain one of the few spkrs I would swap my Zus for.

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Keith, the Uno is not quite my cup of tea, too high a x/over setting for sure. AG still remains the best compromise for horn/dynamic bass integration I've heard, and I'm sure the XD tech takes this a step further. So some of the best sounds from a horn for dance/ambient/dub/alt rock etc. And the Duos XD remain one of the few spkrs I would swap my Zus for.

I just love dance/ambient/dub/alt rock - I am going to buy a Thorens Ref, American Sounds, Techdas, Goldmund Ref, and Micro Seiki to listen to this music - with original LPs.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

I believe Dave DDK may be just the man to help you.

morricab · May 10, 2016

audio-land said:
!
Hi Morricab, thank you for the comment and visit. Gamma on Munich is an active F4 front loaded bass horn (F4 means total 4 driver for a stereo). With regards of F8, they are the fastest and most realistic bass we have heard, trust us, we play it from single whispering vocal to the darkest genre that barely heard for a few of us at a high level. Shy is the last thing those beast call for producing the lowest octave. As we mentioned previously, Ralph always set them 2 level gain below our preference and type of music. You and us may have the same preference. Again, F4 you had heard was an fully active, gain level, x over, phase, boost, etc. If you fell they were shy, they were set to be.

We have never heard honkiness on Cessaro horns. We have tested Cessaro horns with shouting from the horn's throat (without driver) and it was an amazing experience. It could be recording or room but it was not the horn for sure.

Thanks Johan for the feedback. I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt given the size of the speaker and the proximity to the room. Perhaps I haven't yet heard one that "fit" the room. To be sure, the bass was light but also to be sure it was a conscious choice by whomever set up the room. The sound was overall very good but whatever I heard I heard only with male vocals. Other music sounded quite good.

I would be interested in hearing the new "small" Cessaro the Wagner. This would stand a chance of actually working in my home environment. Can you tell me what the price is of the new speaker? Where could I hear it living in Switzerland?

microstrip · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
I just love dance/ambient/dub/alt rock - I am going to buy a Thorens Ref, American Sounds, Techdas, Goldmund Ref, and Micro Seiki to listen to this music - with original LPs.

Perfect. But you are supposed to keep only three of them. I will take the remaining ones!

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

microstrip said:
Perfect. But you are supposed to keep only three of them. I will take the remaining ones!

Only if you are also into dance/ambient/dub/alt rock, then you can have them

BruceD · May 10, 2016

Yes I must admit I cannot hear any "honking" with the Cessaro Speaker I auditioned-- the Carmen Reference-- I plus I don't like the Avantgarde's they, to me have the annoying "honk"
'
and seem to deliver the sonics as from a Tunnel effect--the bass is discontinuous from the rest-sorry to be a party pooper but if I was considering Horns they would not make my list either.

Hey Ked--Of the TT's you want to snavel!

apart from the sadly unobtainium American Sound go for a Micro 8000X--I compared one to the Techdas and the MS was superior

--good hunting!

BruceD

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

BruceD said:
Yes I must admit I cannot hear any "honking" with the Cessaro Speaker I auditioned-- the Carmen Reference-- I plus I don't like the Avantgarde's they, to me have the annoying "honk"
'
and seem to deliver the sonics as from a Tunnel effect--the bass is discontinuous from the rest-sorry to be a party pooper but if I was considering Horns they would not make my list either.

Hey Ked--Of the TT's you want to snavel! apart from the sadly unobtainium American Sound go for a Micro 8000X--I compared one to the Techdas and the MS was superior--good hunting!

BruceD

Don't doubt it, I think the 500o might be too

microstrip · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Only if you are also into dance/ambient/dub/alt rock, then you can have them

I promise my first LP will be Brahms "Hungarian Dances", followed by Offenbach "Orpheus in the Underworld" - better known for its Galop Infernal, the Can-Can music and then Shostakovich "Jazz Music" with its famous waltzes. Good enough?

KeithR · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Only if you are also into dance/ambient/dub/alt rock, then you can have them

Give me a break dude. Stop being condescending to musical taste.

Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

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