Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

bonzo75 said:

Depends on number of days
1. Apogee Grands, Netherlands. I haven't heard the ones with NATs yet, but these speakers IMO beat anything at Munich, or anywhere, by a fair margin
2. WE 16A, Leipzig - he is getting another WE Londons.
3. Trios with bass horns in Frankfurt or Monaco though I am sure US folks could find some in their area

I am sure you guys could do the Wilsons, Vivids and Magicos anywhere, US or other places, so need to go to Munich for that. You could if you wanted listen to the Neoliths and Cessaro Liszt in London but again US guys could do that in the US. Stenheim is at audioarts in NY, and in EU in Switzerland, plus Hyperion is getting them in Stockholm. There will be Kaiser and Kondo distros in the US as well.

Tune Audio Animas are in Paris and Birmingham. Pick one.

There are Acapella distros in the US.

There is a DIY horn in Berlin. Some of these speakers listed above may not be buyable or implementable, but they are all very different sounds from each other and help us discover what is important to us, and IMO do so better than Munich. Munich is then good to visit to enjoy with fellow gearheads, and look for a few things to add onto potential audition list, but like with any hifi show I would strongly suggest against using it for critical listening and judgements on gear save a couple of exceptions.

What I do miss out from EU tour, which a lot of people want to listen to is the Vox.

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"There will be Kaiser and Kondo distros in the US as well."

Rhapsody (Rhapsody.audio) is the US distributor for Kondo and Kaiser, located in Manhattan.

Ron Resnick said:

Switching to a soft dome tweeter for the XLF, the Alexia and the Alexx eliminated that lower treble brightness.

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I don't find the X-2 Series 2 bright in that region, quite the contrary actually and it doesn't use the soft dome tweeter.
I repeat not having heard the latest generation of Wilson namely the XLF,Alexx and Alexia. The lower echelon models such as the Sasha, Sabrina and Sophia don't float my boat

Simone Leroy said:

In any case, Bonzo and Ron, If you affirm that Sharazade LP sounded in Cessaro room like a real orchestra...I wonder If I usually head a different tipe of orchestra! I mean... The strings sounded completely different from those of a real orchestra! But also the woodwinds sounded very strange on Cessaro system!... And the Tympani sa well... The only instruments tha sounded real were...the horns and the trumpets! ???

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Although I am a horn loving guy in general, I would agree with you that the Cessaro room did not sound quite right. It was not by any means the best sounding horn system. THat honor goes to the Living Voice Vox Palladian/Elysium system with Kondo electronics. Again, IMO, the best sound at the show and the only one that really does sound like real live music with appropriate recordings.

I am also a planar loving guy having come from a long time love affair with ribbons and stats and I was able to get those, in their own way, to sound like the real thing EXCEPT for the live dynamics. The best horns do that easily and get electrostatic like results for the rest. I have yet to hear a Cessaro demo pull that off. In fact, I would argue that the LV/Kondo room was the only room at the show that even made a truly fair attempt at completely disappearing...it wasn't really even a close competition.

Ron Resnick said:

This is true! But we don't have to be quite that nihilistic. (I don't think 100 guys would end up with 100 different systems.)

If 10 people listen to the same system I don't think there would be 10 different opinions as to the sound of that system. I think there would be two or three or four differing views around which people would coalesce.

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Ron, (nice meeting you at the Ubiq presentation at the Sheraton)

I actually think that for former statement is probably accurate, think about it, how many people do you know have the exact same system? I don't think I know two people with the same "recipe"....100 different people usually will end up with a 100 different systems. Even if they have the same speakers, the total system will be different as to the choice of electronics, cables, treatments etc, all tuned to personal preference.

morricab said:

... It was not by any means the best sounding horn system. THat honor goes to the Living Voice Vox Palladian/Elysium system with Kondo electronics. Again, IMO, the best sound at the show and the only one that really does sound like real live music with appropriate recordings.

I am also a planar loving guy having come from a long time love affair with ribbons and stats and I was able to get those, in their own way, to sound like the real thing EXCEPT for the live dynamics. The best horns do that easily and get electrostatic like results for the rest. I have yet to hear a Cessaro demo pull that off. In fact, I would argue that the LV/Kondo room was the only room at the show that even made a truly fair attempt at completely disappearing...it wasn't really even a close competition.

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That's the second affirmation that I have just come across that the Living Voice demo achieved competent sound - the combination of tonality and dynamics are the mark of success, which then translates into disappearing transducers ... still so rare to accomplish, unfortunately ...

fas42 said:

That's the second affirmation that I have just come across that the Living Voice demo achieved competent sound - the combination of tonality and dynamics are the mark of success, which then translates into disappearing transducers ... still so rare to accomplish, unfortunately ...

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I really don't think the Vox Olympians & subs /Kondo setup is that great and TBH for price/performance ratio I think the whole set up is a complete joke with regards to value for money.

To my ears the 2014 full price LV/Kondo set up was beaten by quite a few rooms.

So there we are. A dissenter, to balance it out a bit

User211 said:

I really don't think the Vox Olympians & subs /Kondo setup is that great and TBH for price/performance ratio I think the whole set up is a complete joke with regards to value for money.

To my ears the 2014 full price LV/Kondo set up was beaten by quite a few rooms.

So there we are. A dissenter, to balance it out a bit

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I'm interested in what you thought was wrong with the LV/Kondo back then - how did it fail to get the sound right, what did those other rooms do better, that made their sound more believable?

fas42 said:

I'm interested in what you thought was wrong with the LV/Kondo back then - how did it fail to get the sound right, would did those other rooms do better, that made their sound more believable?

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I did post what I thought a while back, but can't find it with the search tool. At least not within 5 minutes of trying.

Try using search, you will find other opinions on the speaker here.

User211 said:

I did post what I thought a while back, but can't find it with the search tool. At least not within 5 minutes of trying.

Try using search, you will find other opinions on the speaker here.

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Here you go. When you get round to working on computers you will know that you also do a search on google, "user211 vox kondo"

User 211s Kondo vox post

bonzo75 said:

Here you go. When you get round to working on computers you will know that you also do a search on google, "user211 vox kondo"

User 211s Kondo vox post

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LOL. Must try harder

bonzo75 said:

It also depends on who those 10 are and what music they listen to and what gear they have heard. You, Spirit and I are differ in our music auditions. Simone and I are similar, but then there is a difference in the gear that we have heard. Also differs is the audition style. For example, you and I brought along our LPs, Ron, but Spirit did not, and I am not sure Simone did.

So all of a sudden there is a lot of difference in music tastes, gear experience, and audition style used to make judgements that might explain SOME, not all, of those differences

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I totally agree with you, and yes of course, I always bring with me some well known music for "testing" the different systems.
But since I listen to ripped CD, I usually bring with me several AIFF files and not LPs....
Neverthless this year in Munich I found few exposers who let me play my music from my Key... Fear of informatic viruses?
I had with me two different version of Rimsky Korsakov Sherazade, one with Riccardo Chailly conducting the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, a Decca London digital recording of 1993, and the other with Riccardo Muti conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra, an EMI recording DDD of the very fist '80ies.... Both of them are of a high high artistic value and, even If very different one from the other, well recorded.....

fas42 said:

I'm interested in what you thought was wrong with the LV/Kondo back then - how did it fail to get the sound right, would did those other rooms do better, that made their sound more believable?

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I went to Munich last year and also heard the Vox at length. They are very enjoyable to listen to for sure but the system was massively coloured. All instruments were hugely smoothed over as though one scooped a massive dollop of clotted cream and dropped it in - delicious for sure but not real at all. To be fair to the Vox, it might have been the Kondo that was coming through in all its rose tinted beauty. They did play an awful lot of very simple music though - I would love to have seen how the bass and other drivers worked (together) with some fast tempo and dynamic stuff but alas it was 90% audiophile jazz.

It is beautifully made furniture for sure but the price is ridiculous IMHO. I can understand why they have a big following because they produce a hugely enjoyable rose tinted portrayal of music that definitely speaks to you but to think this is what the natural timbre of instruments sounds like or that they sound real is not correct in my opinion. Many orchestral instruments don't always sound forgiving and pleasant on the ear - far from it.

Audiophile Bill said:

I went to Munich last year and also heard the Vox at length. They are very enjoyable to listen to for sure but the system was massively coloured. All instruments were hugely smoothed over as though one scooped a massive dollop of clotted cream and dropped it in - delicious for sure but not real at all. To be fair to the Vox, it might have been the Kondo that was coming through in all its rose tinted beauty. They did play an awful lot of very simple music though - I would love to have seen how the bass and other drivers worked (together) with some fast tempo and dynamic stuff but alas it was 90% audiophile jazz.

It is beautifully made furniture for sure but the price is ridiculous IMHO. I can understand why they have a big following because they produce a hugely enjoyable rose tinted portrayal of music that definitely speaks to you but to think this is what the natural timbre of instruments sounds like or that they sound real is not correct in my opinion. Many orchestral instruments don't always sound forgiving and pleasant on the ear - far from it.

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Exactly. That said, current electronics or some tweaking could make it sound more real, but I will take the Grands over this any day. Could get Henk to create a good plated frame for them too at a lesser price

Simone Leroy said:

I totally agree with you, and yes of course, I always bring with me some well known music for "testing" the different systems.
But since I listen to ripped CD, I usually bring with me several AIFF files and not LPs....
Neverthless this year in Munich I found few exposers who let me play my music from my Key... Fear of informatic viruses?
I had with me two different version of Rimsky Korsakov Sherazade, one with Riccardo Chailly conducting the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, a Decca London digital recording of 1993, and the other with Riccardo Muti conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra, an EMI recording DDD of the very fist '80ies.... Both of them are of a high high artistic value and, even If very different one from the other, well recorded.....

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Yes I have heard the concertgebouw version it's nice. Also get the one from reference recordings, good recording quality

audioblazer said:

View attachment 26929

View attachment 26930
Silvercore super duper power conditioner . All cables in the set up are from silvercore

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If you are interested I actually have a custom version of the 3 phased Netzfitler at home that I got done on order by Gecom, the actual company that designed and build the filter. Silvercore is getting the coils done and does the "distribution". I remember writing my only post on the forum asking for advise on power conditioner. I am happy I found my own answer.
I also went to Munich for the High end, plus the exhibition at the marriot. I have very different opinions about the Zellaton Room or Vitus to say the least but even if I changed my Kharma to Magico the new Veyron Serie feels quite good. Hard to tell though knowing they never get used with other electronics

bonzo75 said:

Exactly. That said, current electronics or some tweaking could make it sound more real, but I will take the Grands over this any day. Could get Henk to create a good plated frame for them too at a lesser price

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You could probably have them in solid gold never mind plated

More coverage of munich highlights
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Amaa8AvKpx8
Gryphon, zellaton, kronos, seem to have been favourites.

Audiophile Bill said:

It is beautifully made furniture for sure but the price is ridiculous IMHO. I can understand why they have a big following because they produce a hugely enjoyable rose tinted portrayal of music that definitely speaks to you but to think this is what the natural timbre of instruments sounds like or that they sound real is not correct in my opinion. Many orchestral instruments don't always sound forgiving and pleasant on the ear - far from it.

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IOW, if they played a trumpet solo at realistic levels, it wouldn't have the bite or intensity of the real thing? That a trumpet player outside the door of the demo room would immediately pick it as fake?

fas42 said:

IOW, if they played a trumpet solo at realistic levels, it wouldn't have the bite or intensity of the real thing? That a trumpet player outside the door of the demo room would immediately pick it as fake?

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Hi,

Well I have played trombone for most of my life and *very* familiar with the sound of brass instruments - trumpet on the audiophile Jazz tracks I heard was decent enough although not the bite of a real trumpet for sure. People forget just how dynamic a brass instrument actually is also. Could you pick it - easily but then there is no speaker I ever heard that you couldn't pick it. Where te timbre went awry for me was particularly on strings - they all sounded like a spoon full of cream / butter had been dropped in for good measure.

If you have a minute of time and a bit of patience I will tell you a story and at the end I'll ask also your opinion.
At Munich Hi End 2014 or 2015 I listen to a vynil played by a a huge Horn system (I don't remember If Acapella, Cessaro or Avantgarde). I loved that short piece of Music, sung by a tenor acompanied, I thought by Tympani or Grancassa, Percussions and a Choir. Only when I listened to the same piece played on Magico M7 plus CH Precision electronics (the same system assembled for this 2016 HiEnd) I realized that it was the great young Josè Carreras. This should be, for me and per se, a demostration that horn system was so coloroured that I couldn't have identified the voice of one of my favorite singers (I have at least 30 complete operas featuring Carreras). But, please, let's ignore this point and let's go on with my story. So last May 2015, once at home I made an internet research and I discovered the piece was the Kyrie, the incipit (the begin) of Misa Criolla by Ramirez. So I ordered the Decca CD (recorded in 1987) and I ripped it. Once I listened it on my home system I had a start and jumped on the chair: the Carreras voice was clear and wonderfully natural as usual on my system, but the Choir was smallest than I have heard in Munich and above all, the greatest difference concerned the percussions: no, it wasn't a Tympani or a Grancassa, it was a smallest drum...its sound reminded to me a drum once I heard in a concert given by a folk-pop group insiede a church near my house. Ok, I thought, the Magico system has much more bass extension than my Magneplanar 3.7 II, and this explains what a difference in percussions sound....
This year in Munich 2016 I heard once again that piece, played at least in 2 or 3 different rooms, every time played on a turntable ... Carreras sung "Senor ten piedad de nosotros" acompanied by the Choir and those enourmous percussions....
Once at home few days ago I was on YouTube looking for a Claudio Abbado in Lucerne video and...surprise!! I found the original video of Carreras who sung Kyrie of Misa Criolla, I suppose the video of the same recording session, as it used to be done in '80ies by Philips, Decca and DG which put in commerce at the same time CD and Video of the same recording session.
In any case....surprise!! All the percussions in that video are two drums, no Tympani or Grancassa, but the same type of drums I had heard in that church near my house!
So here is my own recent experience with two question for everyone who knows this piece: 1) Is the vynil "audiophile version" modified in order to increase the bass extension of percussions? 2) Or all those systems "bettered" the drums made them huge Tympani? Because, at the end of the game, my Magneplanar let me hear the original sound of the drums recorded .....
So please, can you help me to explain this matter?