How Do You Shop For Cables?

I've read today that some cables are 'manipulated'...like to sound louder...then consequently preferred by audiophiles.
I've also read some more about well known audio cable brands and some of the deceptive tactics they use to impress their potential customers. ...Malpractices.

When I read stuff like that on the Internet, I use my own good judgement to balance facts from fiction. The deceptive manipulations some are using for their products; they simply are not on my shopping list.

Anyway, there are cables and there are more cables. I buy the ones good people recommend, like from Bell Labs for example. ...That's what's best. :b

Do you have any links?

Andrew Marshall is an audio writer/reviewer from Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
He founded AIG (Audio Ideas Guide) in the seventies; I was a subscriber for several years ? http://www.audio-ideas.com/about-aig/
I still have the mags, and few of them have articles on cables; speaker cables and interconnects...analog and digital.
But the best articles was from a guy that used to work for Bell Labs.
I would have to take pics directly from my audio mags and post them here.

It amazes me that today we don't have access to the best articles online.
Many audio mags subsist from online donations and the selling of older audio mags...if still avail.

I can name few mags like this...but you must know some of them.
Knowledge isn't free.

Give me some time to see what I can do, in relocating my mags, and if permissible to reprint those articles here.
The name of the ex-Bell Labs guy is Jim Hayward; you might have heard of him.
• Making the Connection , Part Deux: A closer look at the role of
speaker cables. Jim Hayward offers the sequel, tests a variety of
different cables, and a looks at what matters most.

There is also the first part of course. And those two articles...you cannot have more scientific than that.
Google him with Making the Connection...
_________

• http://bryston.com/PDF/newsletters/Bryston_Newsletter_V5_2.pdf
• http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=general&m=4087

>The article and study was done by Jim H. Hayward. "Recently retired from
>Bell Canada Special Services Engineering and Operations Groups, Jim Hayward
>is a Ryerson
>Electronics Technology graduate whose professional specialty has been data
>communications and radio systems. He is also a pianist and longtime
>audiophile, and currently teaches at Radio College of Canada in Toronto."
>

Paraphrasing:
>
>"The laws of physics are the same regardless of which end of the power amp
>you observe. That said, there is one parameter that causes a profound
>difference in performance. It is the impedance interface.
>
>He proceeds to outline aspect of cables, Zs,R and L. and follows with
>
>"a recent study of nyquist plots of the complex impedance curves of 21
>speaker systems wasn't good news for those audiophiles who believe the
>world would be a better place if all the audiophiles invested in
>transmission lines with a characteristic impedance of 8 ohms. ... the
>minimum impedance being one ohm and the maximum 28 ohms. Phase deviations
>abounded between maximums of =56 and -67.5 degrees.
>As if that wasn't bad enough, a number of scientific reports indicate that
>certain dynamic signals...applied to speaker systems can cause a current
>flow that is up to two and a half times greater than that predicted from
>the speaker's minimum impedance."
>
>The power amp must be capable of delivering very high current and have an
>output
>impedance of nearly zero. A power amp must behave as much as possible like a
>perfect voltage source. In other words , its output voltage must not be
>influenced by changes in load impedance. ... Lets take an actual cable
>parameter and see how
>its impact changes with the magnitude of the source and load impedance. 500pF
>is a typical value for parallel capacitance of 3 meter length of ... speaker
>cable. As capacitance reactance is lowest at high frequencies, lets analyze
>its
>impact at 20kHz where its nasty shunting behavior will be most detrimental.
>It's capacitive reactance is about 16 kohms at 20 kHz and this is in parallel
>with the load. If the source is a passive preamp with an output impedance
>of 16
>kohms also, the frequency response will be down 3dB at 20kHz. Also, a high
>impedance
>preamp must drive a very high input impedance power amp to avois excessive
>loading.
>so if in our example, the input impedance of the power amp was 250 kohms,
>there would be over fifteen times more current flowing through the cables
>capacitive reactance to
>ground than through the input of the power amp at 20 kHz.
>
>Discussion of features necessary for high performance speaker cables omitted
>for brevity.
>
>The following speaker cables were measured and studied
> Prism Time-Compensated
> Nordost Flatline
> Kimber 8TC
> Kimber 4TC
> Cardas Quadlink 5C
> van den Hul The Revelation
> van den hul Hybrid
> Amphenol RG8/U
> lamp cord (16 AWG)
>
>Impedance vs. Frequcecy (mohms)
> Below 2kHz all cables were bunched together below 50. Lamp cord ran about
>twice as much. The cables radically diverge above 2kHz - at 20 kHz they
>vary from 130 to 780. Flat impedance is better.
>
>Conclusions
>
>Risetime Tells Tells ... The cable with the shortest risetime is the one with
>the largest bandwidth. It is also an excellent indicator of uniform
>frequency and phase behavior within the audio spectrum. Low inductance
>cables have the flattest
>frequency response and shortest rise time. Cables with very low resistance are
>only contenders if they have low inductance also.
>
>Minimize power loss by using more cables. Bi-wire or bi amp. Not only does it
>reduce current in each cable but it reduces intermodulation distortion as
>well.
>(My aside-bi-wire with cheaper stiff for low/mids and quality stuff for hf.)
>
>Bi amping is expensive but the results are stunning.
>
>What speaker cables came on top?
> 1. Kimber 8TC by a long shot
> 2. Kimber 4TC by a long shot."
____________

This is a much longer article (just this one alone, because there are two of them, perhaps 16 pages);
very technical and scientific and based on solid electrical facts.

...Or were you asking links about some of the bad guys? ...I got some of that too, but it's movie time now. :b

• http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/parlor-trick-exposed.389/ >> Only 5 pages to read (less than hundred messages).

NorthStar said:

...Or were you asking links about some of the bad guys? ...I got some of that too, but it's movie time now. :b

• http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/parlor-trick-exposed.389/ >> Only 5 pages to read (less than hundred messages).

Click to expand...

Wow !

witchdoctor said:

This is a really old paper but the author does touch on the impact capacitance may have on a cable:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/CableCapacitance.pdf

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In that excellent Jim Brown paper, much of the focus is on dynamic microphones and how cable capacitance affects the mic's frequency response. Only later in the paper does he get to line level interconnects and how little cable capacitance affects reasonable length cables.

witchdoctor said:

what's your favorite speaker cable and how did it measure? Thanks

Click to expand...

rg213/u

I was gonna say : Blindfolded with a creditcard

Hi Doc,

Contact FATWYRE / AKA THE CABLE COMPANY.

You can audition literally every wire on the planet or almost every one.

How to shop for a cable.
1) Borrow cable from dealer
2) Compare loaner cable to my current cable.
3) Keep the one that sounds best to me.
4) Determine whether price is a factor.
4) Return loaner or trade my cable for my new preference.

Actually this is how I select amps, pre-amps, cables, and sources. Not exactly too difficult.

I went to my local dealer and tried to borrow cables to compare to my cables. I listened to some different models from a well known brand in the dealer's showroom. They had one pair of speaker cables and two power cords that they could lend me. They could not supply the other lengths because my main ICs are 5M, and they did not want to order them if I would not buy them first. So I got a flavor for the brand, but people kept telling me that I should really audition the entire suite for my system and the dealer could not provide the rest of the cables to try.

I then contacted a cable company directly and they invited me up for a factory tour. I met the designers, saw how the cables are made, met the assemblers, listened to music in their incredible research and development listening room, swapped some cables, listened some more and then spoke to a salesman. He made suggestions based on the gear I owned. I then gave him a list of the cables I needed and the required lengths. Two weeks later, I got a call and drove back to pick up an entire suite of cables custom calibrated to my specific equipment to audition at home for one month.

I left for vacation, left the system on for ten days of break in, came back and listened to them for an additional four weeks. They were so much better than what I had, and that other famous brand of speaker cables that I tried, that I bought the cables through their local representative. I bought the demo suite that had just been made for me, but the local dealer came to my house to ask questions, hear my system and complete the paper work. I could have just returned them, and there was no deposit, but I kept them and have been happy ever since.

I decided to buy the cables because of the incredible level of service, the trade in values of my old cables, and the sound quality of this particular model range.

I agree with those who have suggested that the only way to really know whether or not to buy cables is to listen to them in your own system. It sounds like DaveC encourages that as well. This past weekend I listed to two competing brands of power cords in a friend's system. They sounded very different from each other. He has one in for audition for three or four weeks. Listening over time is the best way. Perhaps one can narrow the list down by looking at specifications and talking to the designer.

I once met a designer who showed me seven graphs of square waves, the corners of which were highly magnified. It was incredible to see how the shapes at the corners of these sine waves varied between the seven popular cable brands. At regular magnification, they all looked the same, but once blown up, I think to 10-50 times but can't remember, the corners looked wildly different and the designer explained how the shapes corresponded to the different characteristics of a particular cable's sound. It was fascinating. My cable brand was not one of the seven. That would have been interesting to see.

PeterA said:

I once met a designer who showed me seven graphs of square waves, the corners of which were highly magnified. It was incredible to see how the shapes at the corners of these sine waves varied between the seven popular cable brands. At regular magnification, they all looked the same, but once blown up, I think to 10-50 times but can't remember, the corners looked wildly different and the designer explained how the shapes corresponded to the different characteristics of a particular cable's sound. It was fascinating. Transparent Audio was not one of the seven. That would have been interesting to see.

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With the filters Transparent uses, it would have shown one of the worst measurements of a square wave going through it. At least that is the case with the ones I have and measured.

Hi Peter,

I've read your post attentively and can connect with your experience.

Question: If you would try another twenty different custom made cables for your system from different cable name manufacturers, how would you know which one is the best match?

NorthStar said:

Hi Peter,

I've read your post attentively and can connect with your experience.

Question: If you would try another twenty different custom made cables for your system from different cable name manufacturers, how would you know which one is the best match?

Click to expand...

Hello Bob,

I don't know about trying another twenty different cables. I've only tried about four brands in my own system over the years. It is a difficult process. One brand made it very easy, and I liked their sound in my system based on my references.

I don't know how I would know which is the best match other than simply by listening. I don't know of many brands that custom calibrate cables to individual components besides Transparent Audio. MIT is adjustable but I'm told they do something different. I don't understand the technology, so I rely on listening. I do not think I would want to try twenty different brands. I'd rather spend my time listening to music.

PeterA said:

Hello Bob,

I don't know about trying another twenty different cables. I've only tried about four brands in my own system over the years. It is a difficult process. One brand made it very easy, and I liked their sound in my system based on my references.

I don't know how I would know which is the best match other than simply by listening. I don't know of many brands that custom calibrate cables to individual components besides Transparent Audio. MIT is adjustable but I'm told they do something different. I don't understand the technology, so I rely on listening. I do not think I would want to try twenty different brands. I'd rather spend my time listening to music.

Click to expand...

No one has the time to perform such a task, and like you said not all cable manufacturers offer a high service level like the one you described above.
My question was 99% impossible to answer; just pointing to the toughness of one to recommend a brand over another.

Different cables have different properties, and they measure and sound differently because of the material used giving them various measured resistance, impedance, inductance. ...Including the design geometry and skin effect.
? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html >> Part 6 and 7, and other related cable articles.

NorthStar said:

No one has the time to perform such a task, and like you said not all cable manufacturers offer a high service level like the one you described above.
My question was 99% impossible to answer; just pointing to the toughness of one to recommend a brand over another.

Click to expand...

Bob, I had not noticed that you asked your question sarcastically. Had I, I would not have spent the time trying to answer it. I should have also not mentioned any cables by name so as to not appear to recommend a particular brand. That was certainly not my intention. I'll edit the post.

PeterA said:

Bob, I had not noticed that you asked your question sarcastically. Had I, I would not have spent the time trying to answer it. I should have also not mentioned any cables by name so as to not appear to recommend a particular brand. That was certainly not my intention. I'll edit the post.

Click to expand...

??? The cable brand is in your signature. Why would you think to remove it from your post?

amirm said:

With the filters Transparent uses, it would have shown one of the worst measurements of a square wave going through it. At least that is the case with the ones I have and measured.

Click to expand...

I have often wondered why some members do not start virtual system threads or discuss their specific equipment on forums. After reading a comment like this one above, I think I now know why. One never knows what kinds of comments he will get. But I am here to learn from others, so, Amir, do you have any data or graphs to support this claim about the Transparent REF XL MM2 cables? It would be interesting to see the results of this and learn how it corresponds to what they sound like with music signals running through them. "One of the worst" implies to me that you know how they perform in this test and that you have tested many different brands. Could you share your findings?

To answer the OP directly, I listened to my current set of cables in my own system over a period of four weeks and compared them to my existing cables. I preferred how the new cables sounded, so I bought them.

amirm said:

??? The cable brand is in your signature. Why would you think to remove it from your post?

Click to expand...

Because upon reflection, the inclusion of particular brand names does not add value to the meaning of the post which was an attempt to describe a decision process and to answer the OP. I am trying to stay on topic here.

I reported in an earlier post upgrading some power cables and bringing the Entreq Athena into full operation - all three shelves earthed to a Silver Tellus.
The upgrades have made a signficant improvement but not sure what contribution each has made.
One of the changes was to upgrade the power cable on the Audience Aspect AR8 passive power condition to a high power Audience AU 24 SE and to change the fuse on the cable plug to a Phonosophie Gold 13 amp.
Because of the scale of the improvement I am inclined to attribute the lion's share to that upgrade and if correct that suggests to me that the place to start with cable upgrades is the power cables and to use a high end fuse. Previously I was sceptical about high end fuses notwithstanding posts about their benefits.
Does that accord with other members' experiences?