How Do You Shop For Cables?

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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DaveC, I thought you might like this paper on skin effect and litz wire. Your contributions to my thread are much appreciated:

http://www.intex.tokyo/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html

Interesting...

As a consequence, many audio cables with Litz wire were born. Is this strategy effective?

Only if combined with the correct geometry is the answer. edit: I see the request answer button... it's geometry ;) Litz requires there to be no inside and outside wires in the bundle. If the wires were just run in one fat bundle in parallel the bundle will act more like a solid wire wrt skin effect.

For a Lits wire to function effectively, in addition to conductor splitting,
another mechanism which is naturally realized in coil windings is necessary.
Converting to a Lits wire does not unconditionally reduce the skin effect.


I should also note that the math says litz shouldn't matter for 60 Hz frequencies, but it does. There may be other factors at play as well though.
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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I realize this is the case with most people and it does make things really difficult for me, I can't convey value when it's not recognized!

I can make cables that sound anyway you'd want them to by careful selection of parts. From warm and lush to bright and etched, it comes with experience from building a lot of cables over a lot of years. I can try to make some observations that may be helpful:

Wire:

- Copper is always warm, which is a better trade-off vs bright and harsh so copper is safe and some prefer it because it is warm. But warmth masks detail, especially in interconnect cables. Different types of copper also have different degrees of warmth... The warmest cable will use lower purity copper in heavier gauges with PVC insulation, anything less than 23g will have an effect on the highs making the sound seem even warmer. PVC adds to the effect, more muddy than warm though. Upgrading to higher purity copper, using wire thinner than 23g will and using teflon insulation will all improve the performance of the cable by reducing warmth and increasing resolution. Litz-type copper wire is made of many runs of very thin copper wire that are individually insulated and arranged so there are no inner or outer wires in the bundle, accomplished by twisting and/or braiding the wires, sometimes around a round or flat former. UPOCC copper is also less warm and more resolving vs typical copper and is about 3% more conductive vs the standard ETP copper.

Some cable companies have their tricks to get copper to perform better such as cryo, very high voltage pulses, using UPOCC copper etc... Kubala Sosna, Tara and Jorma have some copper cables that are far better than most, but they are expensive and still not as resolving and neutral as they could be. But for a lot of people this is a good trade off, especially if they own very accurate hard-coned speakers with similarly accurate SS amps. But imo this is more like compensation for speaker drivers with certain resonant problems combined with electronics that don't hide the truth. Somewhere you're going to need to add something to make this kind of system musical, but cables aren't the answer, amplification is... whether preamp or amp. See the recent reviews of Magico showing with tube amps...

- Silver is never warm and can add some very undesirable traits like accentuated leading edges, harshness, grain... basically what people call an "etched" sound. But it is more resolving than copper and some kinds of silver wire manage to avoid these effects. Silver wire needs to be very pure to avoid these issues, 5N silver is usually pretty good but UPOCC silver is 6N+ and is head and shoulders better than typical silver wire, it's by far the best wire for audio use generally available. It has one issue and that is the timbre of vocals and acoustic instruments can seem a bit light weight. This can be avoided by either using much larger gauges than needed, both Wireworld and Siltech use 17g UPOCC silver in their top end ic cables which is huge overkill. I have a custom UPOCC silver/gold alloy made for me, which provides a very realistic timbre and is the most accurate and neutral wire for audio I have ever tried, by far. It's also the most expensive wire in the world not counting pure gold, platinum, etc wire. Finally, Duelund has 5N silver wire with a mineral oil impregnated silk dielectric. This makes for a silver wire that is almost warm, it's very smooth and has a beautiful tone but it's far from neutral and makes for the most love-it/hate-it cable I've ever seen. It is more resolving than copper and if the tone has good synergy with your system you may love it, if not it can be really bad.

Dielectric: Air and cotton sound very good but allow the wire to corrode over time. I built some cables in cotton and oversized teflon tubes and the wire does corrode over the years. Some will say it doesn't matter but imo that's BS. The truth is it's a subtle difference vs regular teflon insulation, and imo it's far better to have a cable whose wire will not corrode over time. I have made prototype cables with nitrogen gas dielectric and this works pretty well but is much more difficult to manufacture.

Geometry: a litz-type geometry using wire smaller than 23g is key. Coax type cables always sound bad. Side-by-side is missing the opportunity to use noise-canceling geometry, usually these are ribbon cables and while they can sound good it's nowhere near as good as a litz braid.

Connectors: For RCA plugs it hard to beat WBT 0102 Ag, imo they are the king of RCA plugs. For a good bit less of a retail price the Furutech FP-108 are excellent, this is rhodium plated pure copper, the same plugs as the very expensive CF-102 but with a brass body instead of carbon/stainless. Then there's the Furutech FP-126(R), probably the best value for the money available. On speaker cable connectors, they make much less of a difference vs ic cable connectors, but it's still worth it to use good quality pure copper connectors, imo Furutech makes some of the best with their FT-211/212 spades and bananas. WBT is very good but expensive and the Furutech carbon fiber/stainless models feature far nicer construction quality vs WBT and the sound isn't much different.

One of the better posts here.

I use Black Cat Lectraline after trying Cardas, Kimber, Transparent, Audioquest and the major brands. Chris Sommovigo, the designer, uses solid core silver but he's eliminated the edginess that you hear on most silver wire. His explanation is around the insulation and how it is woven. I've heard this effect. I think connectors also are important. Termination quality makes a difference and the quality of connector facilitates that. I will try to post a picture of them. They are gorgeous.

Chris is famous for creating the Illuminati digital cables and Stereovox interconnects and speaker cable which received a rave review in Stereophile. His new connector are made under the XOX brand and he builds his cables in small batch quantities by hand. I used to go to his house a lot when he lived in Atlanta and he had a full cable mfg facility right in his house in an adjoining garage and storage unit. Very latest technology. Chris moved recently to Kanagawa, Japan and is evolving the manufacturing further. I'm about to review his new digital cable (DIGIT-75) for Part-Time Audiophile but it sounds excellent.

There is a lot to the proper making of a high performance audio cable, despite what some believe.
 
Last edited:

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,210
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Alpharetta, Georgia
I would add that use Shunyata for my power cabling. I tried a wide variety and found Shunyata to be the best sounding in my system. I have dedicated circuits and, if only to **** off the objectivists, I use Oyaide outlets.
 

KostasP.

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May 6, 2016
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Hello from Melbourne,
We all have our sonic idiosyncrasies - perceptions, preferences and references - and choose our components based on the desired fulfilment of these parameters that we set ourselves. I recently embarked on a major systemic renaissance, i.e to change everything! Based on my priorities and methodology of the selection and auditioning of the various components ( details of which are not needed for this thread ), I left cabling last, unlike what DaveC recommends.

I compared eight cables over a period of more than two months. I do not wish to overstate, let alone exaggerate the differences between them but, albeit subtle, they were discernible and appreciated in my highly resolving, transparent electrostatic system. Suffice to say that, amongst the cables, DaveC's ZenWave D3 was an admirable and comparable performer with a distinct price advantage and complemented the desired synergy of my system. I am currently using these and will be trying the D4s when my new ML CLXs arrive.

My advice - for what it is worth - is that, because of the subtle differences which may be spread over a number of areas in the rendering of music, it helps immensely to give emphasis on one aspect that is subjectively easily identifiable - TONE\TIMBRE, above everything else. If this criterion is not satisfied then the cable, in my view, should be rejected even if it excels in many other areas. First, tone\timbre and then the rest!

PS: With the QUAD 2912s at the time, I preferred the tone of the ZenWave D3 over the D4. I will see what transpires with the CLXs.

Cheers, Kostas.
 

witchdoctor

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Apr 23, 2016
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Hello from Melbourne,
We all have our sonic idiosyncrasies - perceptions, preferences and references - and choose our components based on the desired fulfilment of these parameters that we set ourselves. I recently embarked on a major systemic renaissance, i.e to change everything! Based on my priorities and methodology of the selection and auditioning of the various components ( details of which are not needed for this thread ), I left cabling last, unlike what DaveC recommends.

I compared eight cables over a period of more than two months. I do not wish to overstate, let alone exaggerate the differences between them but, albeit subtle, they were discernible and appreciated in my highly resolving, transparent electrostatic system. Suffice to say that, amongst the cables, DaveC's ZenWave D3 was an admirable and comparable performer with a distinct price advantage and complemented the desired synergy of my system. I am currently using these and will be trying the D4s when my new ML CLXs arrive.

My advice - for what it is worth - is that, because of the subtle differences which may be spread over a number of areas in the rendering of music, it helps immensely to give emphasis on one aspect that is subjectively easily identifiable - TONE\TIMBRE, above everything else. If this criterion is not satisfied then the cable, in my view, should be rejected even if it excels in many other areas. First, tone\timbre and then the rest!

PS: With the QUAD 2912s at the time, I preferred the tone of the ZenWave D3 over the D4. I will see what transpires with the CLXs.

Cheers, Kostas.

Thanks for the informative post. So you auditioned 7 or 8 cables and chose the one with the best tone/timbre in your system. Did you use a local dealer, order online? Was it difficult lining up 7 cables for an audition that you could return for a refund if you didn't want to keep them?
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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Hello from Melbourne,
We all have our sonic idiosyncrasies - perceptions, preferences and references - and choose our components based on the desired fulfilment of these parameters that we set ourselves. I recently embarked on a major systemic renaissance, i.e to change everything! Based on my priorities and methodology of the selection and auditioning of the various components ( details of which are not needed for this thread ), I left cabling last, unlike what DaveC recommends.

I compared eight cables over a period of more than two months. I do not wish to overstate, let alone exaggerate the differences between them but, albeit subtle, they were discernible and appreciated in my highly resolving, transparent electrostatic system. Suffice to say that, amongst the cables, DaveC's ZenWave D3 was an admirable and comparable performer with a distinct price advantage and complemented the desired synergy of my system. I am currently using these and will be trying the D4s when my new ML CLXs arrive.

My advice - for what it is worth - is that, because of the subtle differences which may be spread over a number of areas in the rendering of music, it helps immensely to give emphasis on one aspect that is subjectively easily identifiable - TONE\TIMBRE, above everything else. If this criterion is not satisfied then the cable, in my view, should be rejected even if it excels in many other areas. First, tone\timbre and then the rest!

PS: With the QUAD 2912s at the time, I preferred the tone of the ZenWave D3 over the D4. I will see what transpires with the CLXs.

Cheers, Kostas.

Hi Kostas, good to hear... I think I remember you from around a year ago or so, maybe longer. Time flies. :)

The big difference between the D3 and D4 is the D3 is a touch warmer and not as clear and detailed vs the D4. Recently though I have made some changes to the D3 borrowing from the D4's geometry and using Furutech FP-108 RCA plugs instead of the FP-101 I was using, this has moved the D3 a bit closer to the D4, it's still warmer as the ground and RCA plugs are made of copper, but it's more resolving and also smoother than it was before. This may be an ideal combination for a lot of people and the value for the money is now even better. The D4 uses a lot more silver and the WBT 0102 Ag that go for over $400 retail so it'll never be inexpensive but now the D3 is 85% as good for less than half the price! For those who want a touch of warmth the D3 may be preferred.

I also agree about tone, if this isn't right it colors everything all the time. That's also why I like my 6SN7 tube buffer preamp and softer cone drivers, vocals and acoustic instruments just sound more real to me, I know part of it is distortion but if it makes it sound more real that's ok. So amp and speakers are contributing a lot to tone and the cables mostly just stay out of the way. Tone is the whole reason for my UPOCC silver/gold alloy instead of pure silver as well. The silver/gold provides a very realistic timbre while pure silver is often sounding a bit lean.
 

KostasP.

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
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Melbourne
Hello witchdoctor and DaveC,
I apologise for the ambiguity; many details were only implicit in my post. No, the cables were not all compared as one group. With the exception of the ZenWave cables, which I received directly from the importer ( a truly exemplary person), the others were borrowed from dealers - two at any one time without a deposit being required, as I was known to them.

Dave, this in fact is the very first time that we are communicating; it was surely a namesake! The D3 was, for me, a touch harmonically richer ( "warmer" was your descriptive). The D4 was, on the contrary, portrayed a sense of greater focus, without quite approaching etchiness. These very subtle delineations should be explored when "locking in" the final sonic signature of one's system.

Of course, we can all be fallible with our assessments but - somewhat immodestly - I trust my hearing, know how to listen and can verbalise my perceptions without ambiguity. This helps me; everyone is different. When I tested these cables for tone\timbre, I used one or two instruments.

Enjoy your day, Kostas.
PS: Dave, I will recall your explanations when the time comes to test the D4 with the CLXs. Thank you.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Hello witchdoctor and DaveC,
I apologise for the ambiguity; many details were only implicit in my post. No, the cables were not all compared as one group. With the exception of the ZenWave cables, which I received directly from the importer ( a truly exemplary person), the others were borrowed from dealers - two at any one time without a deposit being required, as I was known to them.

Dave, this in fact is the very first time that we are communicating; it was surely a namesake! The D3 was, for me, a touch harmonically richer ( "warmer" was your descriptive). The D4 was, on the contrary, portrayed a sense of greater focus, without quite approaching etchiness. These very subtle delineations should be explored when "locking in" the final sonic signature of one's system.

Of course, we can all be fallible with our assessments but - somewhat immodestly - I trust my hearing, know how to listen and can verbalise my perceptions without ambiguity. This helps me; everyone is different. When I tested these cables for tone\timbre, I used one or two instruments.

Enjoy your day, Kostas.
PS: Dave, I will recall your explanations when the time comes to test the D4 with the CLXs. Thank you.


Ok, well good to meet you now! :)

Yes, exactly. D4 is as clear and resolving as possible, D3 saves money on plugs and ground wire so is half the price. The lower cost parts add a bit of warmth that some might like. The D4 is meant to be a reference so you can hear everything, every little detail is preserved, but this makes it unforgiving of the system and makes flaws in recordings stand out more relative to a warmer cable. The combination of D4 ic and SMSG speaker cable can make very large differences in a system that is ready for it...
 

witchdoctor

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Apr 23, 2016
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Ok, well good to meet you now! :)

Yes, exactly. D4 is as clear and resolving as possible, D3 saves money on plugs and ground wire so is half the price. The lower cost parts add a bit of warmth that some might like. The D4 is meant to be a reference so you can hear everything, every little detail is preserved, but this makes it unforgiving of the system and makes flaws in recordings stand out more relative to a warmer cable. The combination of D4 ic and SMSG speaker cable can make very large differences in a system that is ready for it...


DaveC, I am getting a Chord Mojo Dac and was wondering about cables. I will connect it to the USB port of my PC to the RCA jacks on my Marantz 7702 processor. I need a USB cable and a way to go from the mini jack on the Dac to the RCA jacks on my receiver. I know there are adapters available as well as cables made for this purpose.
What would you recommend from the ZenWave line? Thanks
 

DaveC

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witchdoctor, PM sent...
 

MadFloyd

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DaveC, how important is it that a single ended cable (RCA->RCA) used from turntable to phonostage be a 'phono' cable versus regular interconnect? I've read something on how the gauge should be different; wondering what your thoughts are.
 

DaveC

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DaveC, how important is it that a single ended cable (RCA->RCA) used from turntable to phonostage be a 'phono' cable versus regular interconnect? I've read something on how the gauge should be different; wondering what your thoughts are.

I generally shield phono cables, where with line level it's generally best to go unshielded so there is less capacitance. But many people also prefer unshielded phono cables despite there being a bit more noise. I've made identical cables, one set shielded and the other not and sent them around to some folks for listening and testing as phono cables. The biggest problem is some turntables route the signal wiring right through the motor's magnetic field and this always results in hum, so some phono cables really do need to be shielded to function properly. So, generally I shield phono cables and I space the shield away from the conductors to minimize the increase in capacitance as much as possible.

Also, many amps these days have a lot of gain so at lower listening levels the IC cables are carrying signals that can be as low as phono cables carry. IMO this is not ideal but until we go back to amps that require gain from a preamp we are stuck with this issue.

I've tested wire gauge in a lot of cables and there is a difference but it depends a lot on the type of wire, I don't find that phono cables necessarily need lower gauge wire but I use a litz design where I use multiple runs of thinner wire in a particular geometry to make a larger gauge wire. For the wire I use I find multiple runs of 26g solid-core wire works best, but I'd never use wire larger than 24g for any application so all of my cables could be considered to use fairly small diameter wire. It is true that thicker wire will have a negative effect, it sounds less focused at high frequencies.
 

MadFloyd

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Thanks for the response, Dave.
 

pielectronics

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Checking the system

When I select components for a home entertainment system I like to get gear that sounds as neutral as possible. I think the job of a well made cable is to let the signal pass through without altering it. Does anyone know how to identify a neutral sounding cable BEFORE you listen to it? The materials, the connectors, the measurements? I can generally tell how neutral a speaker will be before listening to it by looking at a chart of frequency response and off axis dispersion, sometimes the type of drivers or cabinet it uses but for cables I am not sure. In my experience cables have made the biggest bang for the buck difference in my system. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks

Hi there, the best way that I think is to check your system and comparing with the cable specification. I previously have piarmor cable for my system and I just check its data and then get a try. Honestly, if you want to have the right cable, the best way is to check the spec first and then have a try.
 

RogerD

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I buy Gepco Quad microphone cable for my IC's and have the supplier terminate them for me. Excellent cable for 2 or 3 bucks a foot and blends right in with the High end cables that I have. These cables have excellent shielding and very low Shield current induced noise which is a major factor in sonic quality.
 

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