Solid State, Tubes or Both?

The concept of "blackness" probably is an amalgam of several different electrical characteristics of a playback system. Signal/noise ratio, along with ringing and distortion products may all play an inter-related role in creating this "blackness". I'm sure there are other quantifiable factors that could also contribute. So, perhaps there is a "threshold value" for the combined effects of these anomalies above which "blackness" is not perceived?

Lee

tomelex said:

Yes Lee, I agree there is more to it.

Say you were listening at normal volume to your system, and you hit pause on the cd player, then go put your ear up next to the speaker, hear the noise. But, when you hit play again, the noise did not stay at the level you heard it at, it now dances up and down with the music signal.

Speaking of blackness. I always thought that at an indoor concert in a large space (say bigger than the high school gym or so) that our brain gets a little disoriented. Like we are in a cave. That particular "spacenss sound...big enclosed space sound" is foreign to our brain. And, it is easy to fall asleep in that setting too, that has always been interesting to me, there you are with hundreds of people being quiet, all around you, and you can just close your eyes an easily fall asleep...weird man.

Tom

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I personally believe that the 'large space" sound is due to the fundamental resonant frequency of that space, and it's very low in frequency indeed. Extremely low frequency tones are known to cause uneasiness and disorientation, even nausea. Ask Steve about hearing the Rotary Woofer from Bruce Thigpen....

Lee

tomelex said:

Yes, and pulsing repetitively at a low frequency (i will not say what except between 5 and 15 hz) at high volume will cause most to lose control over their bowels. Thats uneasiness...

Tom

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Have you heard the computer server scene in the horror movie Pulse? It's HIGH-level pulsations at about 14 Hz, and is considered one of the most vicious subwoofer torture tests currently available in movie soundtracks.

Lee

RBFC said:

Have you heard the computer server scene in the horror movie Pulse? It's HIGH-level pulsations at about 14 Hz, and is considered one of the most vicious subwoofer torture tests currently available in movie soundtracks.

Lee

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Hi

Out of curiosity .. Are most commercial cinemas subs capable of such performance?

RBFC said:

Have you heard the computer server scene in the horror movie Pulse? It's HIGH-level pulsations at about 14 Hz, and is considered one of the most vicious subwoofer torture tests currently available in movie soundtracks.

Lee

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if I didn't hate horror movies I would buy this just to test that on my system Lee

I'd probably think that most commercial cinemas can't do a real good job with tones at that frequency. Maybe some of the newer "digital" theaters with upgraded sound systems could deal...

Lee

Lee you got me real curious so I just went out and rented Pulse to check out the low frequency (14Hz) passages. My LFE subs are tuned to 17Hz and I want to compare the scene you are talking about to the new remake of A Nightmare on Elm Street which is the movie that made me put the sub sonic filter at 17Hz on my subs. Some of the scenes in that movie were driving my subs to, and past their excursion limits (not a good thing). Prior to that I had no filters or limiting on my LFE subs at all and had played numerous movies with no experience of hitting the excursion limits of the drivers up until that movie. Lee do you know for a fact that the scene you are talking about in Pulse is at 14Hz?

Dan

I like SS amps for the headroom and dynamics, but my 300B mono blocks do have a quality that is missing in the SS amplifiers. I use a recapped Accuphase C200 currently with SS mono blocks and that combo produces great tonal accuracy and dynamics. If I add my Ampex 350 electronics into the equation using the tape monitor of the Accuphase I get a larger more realistic soundstage with a emotional element that is missing with a all SS presentation. I have yet to string together the C200,Ampex,and Vac 140's,but I imagine that it should be close to the best of both worlds,maybe.

DWR said:

Lee you got me real curious so I just went out and rented Pulse to check out the low frequency (14Hz) passages. My LFE subs are tuned to 17Hz and I want to compare the scene you are talking about to the new remake of A Nightmare on Elm Street which is the movie that made me put the sub sonic filter at 17Hz on my subs. Some of the scenes in that movie were driving my subs to, and past their excursion limits (not a good thing). Prior to that I had no filters or limiting on my LFE subs at all and had played numerous movies with no experience of hitting the excursion limits of the drivers up until that movie. Lee do you know for a fact that the scene you are talking about in Pulse is at 14Hz?

Dan

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Dan,

The only reference I could quickly find stated 15-20Hz PLAY AT YOUR OWN RISK. The accompanying waterfall plot shows strong content at 15Hz. The scene begins at 1:11:58 in the movie, where the actors enter a computer server room. The drone from the servers is a pulsating bass in the frequencies mentioned. There have been many reports of this segment overdriving subwoofers. I had read somewhere that the fundamentals in that scene were 14 Hz, and I have the DVD. I'll confirm that this is probably one of the most unbelievable bass displays currently issued. You can look at AVSforum dot com to check the info in the Bass, Transducers, and Subwoofers section.

Lee

Thanks for that recommendation Lee, I just watched the movie and my subs handled it without a hitch, so my settings on my subsonic filter is surely in the ballpark of where it needs to be. The bass content in this movie is incredible, I will visit the AVS forum tomorrow to check out the particulars on it, thanks again sir!!

Dan

DWR said:

Thanks for that recommendation Lee, I just watched the movie and my subs handled it without a hitch, so my settings on my subsonic filter is surely in the ballpark of where it needs to be. The bass content in this movie is incredible, I will visit the AVS forum tomorrow to check out the particulars on it, thanks again sir!!

Dan

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Seems that most of the energy in that scene is 16-17 Hz. However, it registers bright pink on the waterfall graphs, indicating an extremely high recorded level of that frequency.

Lee

tomelex said:

Yes, and pulsing repetitively at a low frequency (i will not say what except between 5 and 15 hz) at high volume will cause most to lose control over their bowels. Thats uneasiness...

Tom

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The Brown Note - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note

John72953 said:

What is your preference for both POWER and PRE amplifiers?

If you are of the opinion that a combination is the way to go, which unit would be SS or Tube?

John

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John:

There is another factor to consider when mixing and matching technologies that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here. That is the potential interaction between say a tube preamp and a ss amplifier as was pointed out many, many years ago by David Wilson in his TAS review. One has to carefully consider the input impedance of the ss amp. If it's say 20 K as say used by Rowland, one may potentially run into a problem of rolling off the low frequencies or diminishing dynamics.

John72953 said:

What is your preference for both POWER and PRE amplifiers?

If you are of the opinion that a combination is the way to go, which unit would be SS or Tube?

John

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Dear John72953: This subject could be controversial and certainly a " sensible " one. There are maybe thousands of threads all over the net where the tube/SS topic is analized and where almost always with out precise conclusions other than: " that's what I like it ", I'm a little different: for me it is not only what I like it but that what I like be right, true and real.

IMHO I think that this subject must be analized with precise audio targets to achieve and then with those targets on mind try to identify the electronic technology that fulfill and match better those targets. Each of us have our specific targets on home audio system quality performance level, targets that goes according our each one music sound experiences and priorities.

My take on the subject is this one:



IMHO there are at least three-four main factors to take in count to build an audio system with an excellence ( excellence that means : truer to the recording. ) quality performance level as a target:

accuracy, the lowest distortions, electrical matching and precise overall set up, well the five factor: our ears and knowledge on music.

A today good designed and executed SS Phonolinepreamp and amplifier are inherent: accurate, with the lowest overall distortions we can achieve and with almost no single problem to match electricaly ( impedances. ) with other system components like speakers.

If you have the other two factors: precise overall system set up and good ears and music knowledge then IMHO you can't beat that system.

In that kind of system LOMC cartridges or MM/MI cartridges or CDs or whatever you use as a source the system will " tell " you what is happening what is the real quality performance of any source.
So SS give us and function like a true " tool " to discern in true about any source alternative. It is not the source what tell us what we like but the whole system where the SS technology is responsible.

For years I heard through tubes, hybrid and SS alternatives ( till I learn/learned. ) each one with its own limitations. My first " target " was to understand those different technology limitations and each of its trade-offs and then analzye those trade-offs ( limitations. ) against my excellence level targets on music sound reproduction

I choose the SS road because with tube technology is imposible to fulfill my needs due that tube technology IMHO is full of distortions, inaccurate and can't match electrical impedance with other audio system items: especially speakers, facts are facts and we can't change it.

Any good audio system must have the " skills " to show the true quality performance level of any source and to shows a near the real " full color " that only live music can shows. I'm seriously on nthe quest of those excellence targets ( in the same manner you are entilted with your own targets. ), no I don't achieve it yet but I think I'm in the right road and unfortunately tube technology can't help me in anyway in any audio system chain place. Today only well designed SS technology can and is help me to fulfill those targets.

Tube technology it is not only a 70+ years old but even its electronics designs use tubes that was not designed in specific for audio and to fulfill excellence level. IMHO tube technology in audio is absolutely OBSOLETE more than 20 years ago and useless on audio music sound reproduction home audio systems: everywhere, especially on phono stage an amplifiers.

Could any one of the tube electronics owners think that in 70+ years are there not a better option? or all these tube electronics owners are thinking that that technology is superior after 70+ years and that the human been never had the skills and scientific knowledge to design better electronics items with a different technology? or are still thinking that tube technology after 70+ years ( with no significant development or improvement through all those years. ) not only can't improve it but that no one already superseded ?.

If this is the case: who/whom tell you all that? do you already know all the tube technology disadvantages/wide limitations ? do you know why is OBSOLETE and useless in audio home audio systems?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.


Ps.: I forgot: the best combination is SS with SS!.

Well, this is a good place to wish all of you the best Christmas date and a Wonderful 2011 full of health and hapiness for all of you and your dearest family!!!!!!

Sincerely,

Raul.