Stereophile and Magico

cannata

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
510
64
263
Italy
You are right of course.... this is so tiresome even though the facts are rather simple. 1. Magico is the most discussed, hottest loudspeaker producer on the planet. 2. Stereophile considers itself a serious high-end magazine. 3. If the two do not meet there can only be two real reasons: the manufacturer refuses to cooperate because of personal issues (the Fremer review, which was spot in my opinion about the boxed-in bass) or Stereophile does not agree with the means (i.e. money) flowing their way. I love both Stereophile and Magico but damn people...grow up. ;)

If we were grown ups, we would not be on this site, now how boring that will be...
Anyway, I asked a question, did not expect JA to reply, but he did, unfortunately to no avail :(
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
They were measured many times, with excellent results, by many different magazines. Basic fact check is very easy these days...

Can you point us these facts and links to help us? Other than the S5 I have not seen such excellent results. As far as I know nowadays only Stereophile and some german audio magazines carry reviews with measurements, even HiFi News only supplies a short almost useless summary.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
You are right of course.... this is so tiresome even though the facts are rather simple. 1. Magico is the most discussed, hottest loudspeaker producer on the planet. (...) I love both Stereophile and Magico but damn people...grow up. ;)

It is not tiresome anymore if someone livens up the thread with a challenging comment, such as yours. :) Can I ask you how did you get this idea?
 

cannata

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
510
64
263
Italy
Can you point us these facts and links to help us? Other than the S5 I have not seen such excellent results. As far as I know nowadays only Stereophile and some german audio magazines carry reviews with measurements, even HiFi News only supplies a short almost useless summary.

I am not about to start arguing what excellent results are, I am not that bored. You said "no measurements available" and now you are saying "other then... just about anyone who does measurements", which all reviewed Magico products in the past, including Martin Colloms of hifi critics. Does not look to me like Magico is afraid of measurements, so no I don't think that is the reason SP is not reviewing them.
 

nirodha

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2010
689
307
1,625
If we were grown ups, we would not be on this site, now how boring that will be...
Anyway, I asked a question, did not expect JA to reply, but he did, unfortunately to no avail :(

i never said WE were grown ups hihi. They should be :D
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
I am not about to start arguing what excellent results are, I am not that bored. You said "no measurements available" and now you are saying "other then... just about anyone who does measurements", which all reviewed Magico products in the past, including Martin Colloms of hifi critics. Does not look to me like Magico is afraid of measurements, so no I don't think that is the reason SP is not reviewing them.

For me it looks that it is part of the reason - it is a question of marketing. HifiCritic is unfortunately an almost unknown magazine of limited circulation - people only know the freely available reviews and can't make comparisons - but its measurements have shown that the Q1 has a tailored response. Stereophile has shown the same for the Q5. HifiNews also the same for the Q3. IMHO this is not a negative aspect - we must use our ears to evaluate speakers, not just a few graphs. My own Soundlab's have horrible measurements, many speakers I also appreciate a lot also have tailored (not flat on axis) responses. But measurements can be a nuisance in marketing for expensive speakers, not a blessing. You can´t not say that a speaker sounds exceptional because it measures well, but it is always so easy to identify a peak or dip and criticize it with great authority!

Back to the original subject I think that most of the time the reason for absence is not the magazine do not wanting to review a product, it is the manufacturer not sending a product for review. Although some magazines do not review products that they do not feel to have minimum quality or distribution.

But I can bet that the reviewers of Stereophile would queue for carrying a review of the M-Pro! ;)
 

cannata

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
510
64
263
Italy
For me it looks that it is part of the reason - it is a question of marketing. HifiCritic is unfortunately an almost unknown magazine of limited circulation - people only know the freely available reviews and can't make comparisons - but its measurements have shown that the Q1 has a tailored response. Stereophile has shown the same for the Q5. HifiNews also the same for the Q3. IMHO this is not a negative aspect - we must use our ears to evaluate speakers, not just a few graphs. My own Soundlab's have horrible measurements, many speakers I also appreciate a lot also have tailored (not flat on axis) responses. But measurements can be a nuisance in marketing for expensive speakers, not a blessing. You can´t not say that a speaker sounds exceptional because it measures well, but it is always so easy to identify a peak or dip and criticize it with great authority!

Back to the original subject I think that most of the time the reason for absence is not the magazine do not wanting to review a product, it is the manufacturer not sending a product for review. Although some magazines do not review products that they do not feel to have minimum quality or distribution.

But I can bet that the reviewers of Stereophile would queue for carrying a review of the M-Pro! ;)

I think that the measurements are more then fine, why would Magico send products to one and not the other? In any case, we asked JA, he replied. I will be in Munich next week, if I see Wolf, I will ask him. Should be interesting ;)
 

nirodha

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2010
689
307
1,625
It is not tiresome anymore if someone livens up the thread with a challenging comment, such as yours. :) Can I ask you how did you get this idea?

I could not thing of any other real explanation :D. But it says something about the strength of the Magico brand: they do not need one of the two most famous high-end magazines to sell their stuff!
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,191
705
1,200
Alto, NM
Could it have anything to do with the TAS reviewer that reviewed both the Raidho and the Magico speaker?

Some internal politics perhaps.
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,011
259
1,170
Poland
what's also strange is there are no Raidho reviews in Stereophile

There are also no Tidal, Avalon, Kharma or Gauder Acoustics reviews. And many other.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,596
11,688
4,410
There are also no Tidal, Avalon, Kharma or Gauder Acoustics reviews. And many other.

Any special reason for that?

i'll wade in on that subject.

with Stereophile, the only really "3H" 'high-end heavy hitter' is Fremer. and he basically is not afraid to speak his mind. so having him do a review is a crap shoot. and getting involved in a crap shoot is not always good business. and then there is Mr. Atkinson; who is going to measure. which is another risk. hard to un-ring those bells.

Absolute Sound is a kinder gentler arena.

for a brand with something to lose; conservative is mostly better. if you have nothing to lose then let'r rip.

and I'm not defending or criticizing either approach. it just is what it is.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Makes good sense Mike.

What we all would love is many many Michael Fremer type of guys, plus many John Atkinson's type of guys to review and measure all great loudspeakers and audio components.
And the same from Abso!ute Sound's best writers and reviewers...Bob Harley, Steven Stone, Neil Gader, Jonathan Valin.

High caliber audio components and loudspeakers require high caliber reviewers and measurements. ...Tell it like it sounds and show it like it measures, tell it like it is. It's the emotional loved music quality sound impact we're all striving for, not the audio business. ...The here and there, not the underground cafe.
 

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,489
2,838
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Dont forget soundstage magazine or soundstage ultra. i think they do a pretty good job , magazines will always have to ride the thin balance of advertising versus " honest" opinion, whenever i go shopping i read soundstage and stereophile as well but soundstage has more ultra highend reviews
But its a poor situation that we dont read much about the mentioned names , for whatever reason
 
Last edited:

Alpinist

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2014
530
143
280
USA
i'll wade in on that subject.

with Stereophile, the only really "3H" 'high-end heavy hitter' is Fremer. and he basically is not afraid to speak his mind. so having him do a review is a crap shoot. and getting involved in a crap shoot is not always good business. and then there is Mr. Atkinson; who is going to measure. which is another risk. hard to un-ring those bells.

Absolute Sound is a kinder gentler arena.

for a brand with something to lose; conservative is mostly better. if you have nothing to lose then let'r rip.

and I'm not defending or criticizing either approach. it just is what it is.

Excellent post, Mike. I totally agree.

Ken
 

Barry2013

VIP/Donor
Oct 12, 2013
2,308
488
418
Essex UK
Do any of those who are suspicious of Stereophile and Magico know if Magico have offered any of their products to them for review?
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,213
13,684
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,011
259
1,170
Poland
i'll wade in on that subject.

with Stereophile, the only really "3H" 'high-end heavy hitter' is Fremer. and he basically is not afraid to speak his mind. so having him do a review is a crap shoot. and getting involved in a crap shoot is not always good business. and then there is Mr. Atkinson; who is going to measure. which is another risk. hard to un-ring those bells.

Absolute Sound is a kinder gentler arena.

for a brand with something to lose; conservative is mostly better. if you have nothing to lose then let'r rip.

and I'm not defending or criticizing either approach. it just is what it is.

+2
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,300
775
1,698
Wow, just WOW. What a load of BS.

It seems that a week without Magico bashing from caesar would be incomplete.

Elberoth, this is a discussion forum of the most knowledgeable, successful and intelligent fans on the web. Whereas on other sites people are either clueless, politically correct chickens that are too scared to offend, or too dogmatic to consider other points of view, people come to this site not only to share their experiences in this subjective hobby, but more importantly - to DISTURB their point of view and challenge their paradigms, which results in the greatest understanding and learnings – and better systems! And, of course, we are having a lot of fun discussing IDEAS about the hobby from all angles. I stand by what I wrote regarding magico’s marketing approach of the S lines and Q lines of products. But, feel free to agree or disagree with anything I say.

Contrary to popular belief, I am actually a Magico speakers fan. I liked their mini and I think the new S products are fantastic. For those who like box speakers, Magico / CAT is hard to beat! I also, for the most part, like their business strategy of separating the analytic/ “transparency to source” Q line and the more audio fan-friendly S line.

However, please don't confuse my dislike for certain, self- interested “audio journalists”, who waste audio fans' time and money with my appreciation for Magico as a company and its products. So let's break things down a bit more:

- The incentives of reviewers and audio fans don't align. High end audio gear is a very expensive luxury and many guys can’t afford to play at a high level. One way to those goodies it to become “reviewers”. The famous ones want their toys for free, long term loans, and also want the piece of gear before other reviewers get them, which increases business to their publications.

But unfortunately, these guys also lack integrity and are gutless to report on how things actually sound. So they mislead and obfuscate, being too gutless to identify a speaker’s flaws until the next version. Case and point: how many of these flunkeys correctly called out the Q series’ sonic signature? Other than Fremer, no one. They had to wait until Q7 II came out to notice that the speaker was tipped up in upper midrange / lower treble and was lacking bass energy.

As they get these freebies from manufacturers that mere mortals don’t, why would they write anything bad about the gear and alienate their sugar daddies, the manufacturers? There are exceptions, of course. For example: many Stereophile guys and the aforementioned, Fremer. Fremer is exceptionally unusual, a most respected writer in a world of audio lies, clearly standing out from the lackeys and sycophants because he has enough self –esteem and a strong personal brand to not be afraid to hand out bad reviews. He’s not bombastic either - look at how low key Fremer’s review of Wilson xlf was. He kept it as his reference. But other than just a few guys, the “audio journalists” only think of their own needs.


Audio fans, on the other hand have other objectives and incentives: many normal audio fans, even if they are somewhat knowledgeable, have vague or conflicting goals, time pressures to fly out and hear components, scheduling issues for trying stuff in their own system, limited information on all the stuff out there and how it may impact their system, and changing system conditions to deal with. Gear swapping may be fun, buy the intelligent audiophiles know that one very quickly gets used to something new, and the fake happiness of a new piece of gear quickly fades away if not part of the ultimately journey to your musical bliss. So overall, most audio fans just want to find that state of beauty and flow in music as an escape from BS of life.

But selecting audio gear is difficult. The very best option for the audio fan is impossible due to an overwhelming amount of products, time, money, and logistics. But choosing a good and reasonable option can be obtained through hard work.

Yet for fans, the penalty of a bad gear decision is consequential: wasted time, money, banged up gear (while moving it around), and FRUSTRATION!

However, most reviewers are not helpful with the audio fans’ journey. The reviewers, of course, don’t care about the helping the fans take the guesswork, randomness, and frustration out of the audio purchasing process. In fact they profit from the confusion that is out there.

So many of these reviewers just write some abstract gibberish and call something the BEST there is! As an example, take the work of Robert “worthless to the audio fan” Harley. All of his work unfortunately is pure junk from the perspective of an audio fan because he doesn’t compare: You can blank out the name of the Berkeley reference DAC product Harley reviewed, and because it's all abstract junk and there are no comparisons to the $100K dcs he had just reviewed a couple months prior, the Berkeley review reads the same as a review if written by the famous, self-loathing audiophile, Ethan Winer of a 9.99 CD player he bought at Walmart. Just switch the names of the guys and the products, and no one will know the difference between Harley’s and Winer’s work. But this is just one of many examples. He also recently wrote about how great the $18K aurender is, but he only compared it to his regular, every day computer… What about the dcs and naim he had? The aurender happens to be great, which shows even a blind pig finds a truffle once in a while. : ) : ) : )

- Being called the BEST, of course, if just fine with the manufacturers! Magico doesn't want Stereophile’s or anyone else’s scrutiny; Wolf prefers the lackeys and sycophants to write about his products. His guys just parrot the magico marketing message. I don't blame him at all for this, who wouldn’t want the same thing for the fruits of their work?!

But the world doesn't work that way: guys like wolf can try and shape the marketing message, but people will go to listen to his gear and not only judge the audio products – and call things as they hear them!, but also judge the reviewers he is using. Experiences are very easy to share these days, and what he thinks is a strength – a lot of “audio authorities” praising his brand, is actually a weakness dragging down his brand. There is an un-authentic quality to his brand due to the dissonance between what the “authorities” are saying and what the audio fans have experienced, especially with the Q line. Furthermore, pointing out shortcomings of gear improves his products and benefits overall audio community. But it also makes magico more “real”, genuine, and respected.

Furthermore, these days, people share all kinds of experiences: pre - purchase, selection, experience during purchase, and throughout the lifetime of the product. This is the new normal. In fact, experiences people have with the magico product is defined through the expressions people share. So by associating with “audio journalists” who have created the fukc the audio fan culture, there is Less trust in magico.

Audio reviewers aren't doing any favors for themselves either. Talk to many knowledgeable audiophile at a meeting or a show, and they will gladly share their thoughts on these “audio journalists”. To summarize and sanitize (in case children are reading), most fans think the “audio journalists” are filthy, disgusting mother foyers. This is very unfortunate because many reviewers are really good guys.

- Since wolf is going after the musicality market now with S line and CAT amps – as a distinct target market from his Q speakers, he has a strong incentive to find new reviewers who care about emotional engagement vs. hearing every distracting detail on the recording that “transparency to source” listeners love so much. The guys that got Wolf here won't be of help. Wolf, himself, has somewhat accepted this. He can easily market the S series as a “cheaper” alternative to the S. The fans would then know it as a red-headed bastard child of the Q. So, instead, wolf has been marketing the 2 lines differently. He has been showing the q line with soulution and the s line with CAT, which may be the best tube gear on the planet. So why not extend this marketing logic to the guys who represent his brands in writing to the fans? Reality is for magico to truly succeed and get to the next level, wolf needs a lot more guys like “Mellifluous” Myles Astor vs. “Sterile” Jon Valin, “Don’t own Magico? YOU SUCK!” Fritz, and Robert “worthless to the audio fan” Harley that now serve as his marketing representatives. It's judo strategy in reverse. The fans interested in musicality don’t trust his current crop of reviewers, unless these “transparency to source”, analytical reviewers undergo electroshock therapy, or full lobotomies, in some instances. : ) : )


So please don't confuse my bashing of the “audio journalists" with commenting on the magico, whose strategy has overall been successful so far, both in terms of their goals and all the positive disruptions it has caused in our hobby to make it better.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing