Contenders for Most Musical and Best Two-Way Mini-Monitors of All Time?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
SLC,
B&W has produced more mini-monitors than Solomon has had wives. What makes this particular model so special?
Please explain what you mean by "anachronistic" in this context in relation to the Kaiser Chiara's. The Raidho C1/D1 are quite different to the Chiara in many ways - even though I would categorize them both as truly musical speakers.
I'm a bit surprised that Magico is discussed within this category as among "the most musical". I guess it allt depends on what you define as "musical", where the Mini's were surely more fluent, organic and forgiving than the current Q1's. Magico, YG, Wilson etc. does not belong in the "most musical" category though imho. This is where you find Kaiser, Nola, Diapason, Verity, Devore...etc. based on my personal definition of the term.
To me, "musical" is a speaker (within the context of this discussion) that manage to present the music as a coherent, fluid, organic and balanced entity with natural timbre, which truly connects you to the music in a highly emotional way, disconnecting your intellect and analytical senses. Quite a few of the most highly regarded brands within the community as well as in the (advertised) press belongs in another category, where qualities more related to "sound analysis" are in fashion, where there's a continuing hunt for maximum transparency, resolution and bandwidth. Nothing wrong with that of course (we're all individuals with different preferences here), but to me - these are products that belong in a different category more or less.
The reality might not be as black and white as this of course - I'm trying to make a point here after all- but this is my truth in general terms, based on my knowledge and experience.
/ Marcus
Hyperion,
That is a very nice definition of musicality!
My vote goes to the Q1, and by a wide margin - it's the only mini-monitor I have ever heard that can do full-scale orchestral music and with a punch, and albeit the slightly flawed tweeter I hear. The Kaiser have all the right design attributes and have been eager to listen to them for a long time - especially the Kawero - but no luck so far.
If I were to buy a modestly sized 2 way today it would be the Kaiser Chiara. While I like many of the more vintage speakers all seemed more limited in one way another than todays top crop. I've never heard them pushed hard though but I normally don't do that to 2-ways anyway. I absolutely loved these with Kondo but from what I could tell, I don't see why they wouldn't sound great with other gear as well including solid state. It's got this smooth intricacy more like a fine silk rug rather than fine filigree. In other words it's not smooth by gliding over details in order to be forgiving.
cannata, I just mean that Magico takes out full page adds in TAS every month. That is pretty expensive. Sometimes it is two pages together. They used to advertise more in Stereophile too. Yes, those other brands advertise even more, it seems. Magico arrived on the scene just ten years ago and has made quite a big impact. Advertising played a roll, I'm sure, but I think people either buy them or not based on how they sound, not on the advertisements.
Please explain what you mean by "anachronistic" in this context in relation to the Kaiser Chiara's. The Raidho C1/D1 are quite different to the Chiara in many ways - even though I would categorize them both as truly musical speakers.
I'm a bit surprised that Magico is discussed within this category as among "the most musical". I guess it allt depends on what you define as "musical", where the Mini's were surely more fluent, organic and forgiving than the current Q1's. Magico, YG, Wilson etc. does not belong in the "most musical" category though imho. This is where you find Kaiser, Nola, Diapason, Verity, Devore...etc. based on my personal definition of the term.
To me, "musical" is a speaker (within the context of this discussion) that manage to present the music as a coherent, fluid, organic and balanced entity with natural timbre, which truly connects you to the music in a highly emotional way, disconnecting your intellect and analytical senses. Quite a few of the most highly regarded brands within the community as well as in the (advertised) press belongs in another category, where qualities more related to "sound analysis" are in fashion, where there's a continuing hunt for maximum transparency, resolution and bandwidth. Nothing wrong with that of course (we're all individuals with different preferences here), but to me - these are products that belong in a different category more or less.
The reality might not be as black and white as this of course - I'm trying to make a point here after all
/ Marcus
Well, as was stated before, and will be, many times again (obviously, some will never manage to come to terms with it) a speaker can’t be “musical”, regardless of what “musical" means. A speaker is a tool, not an orchestra conductor or a musician – nor is it a musical instrument. A speaker should function with the least amount of losses to the signal it received, so ideally, a speaker will be as “analytical” or as “transparent” as possible.
Unfortunately, these terms in audiophile jargon have bad connotation just because someone somewhere decided that some sort of coloration can be called “analytical”. But, some others decided that some coloration can be called “musical”. None should have a place in proper loudspeaker analysis and description, they both mean nothing. But if you insist, I would argue that, the most transparent and analytical loudspeaker will also be the most musical, (precisely what Magico is starving to do, if, god forbid, we look at objective data).
I finally almost agree with cannata .
A LS that has +- 4 db deviations in its overall response , how can it have natural timbre, especially ( natural ) timbre has all to do with FR accuracy .
It can sound great on certain kinds of music , maybe the music one person likes especially , but on other music flawed
A well measuring transparent LS can sound dry and analytical , thats because the membranes add that , natural sounding well constructed membranes dont have that , plastics ceramics not IMO
A LS that has +- 4 db deviations in its overall response , how can it have natural timbre, especially ( natural ) timbre has all to do with FR accuracy .
It can sound great on certain kinds of music , maybe the music one person likes especially , but on other music flawed
A well measuring transparent LS can sound dry and analytical , thats because the membranes add that , natural sounding well constructed membranes dont have that , plastics ceramics not IMO
I perfectly respect and understand what you're coming from. This is what I would describe as a "true to the source" ideal. There are of course others (which makes this a hobby and a passion to many of us in the end). Creating the highest possible level of transparency towards the source material could be one goal - if that's what your aiming for.
/ Marcus
All loudspeakers (even Magicos) have colorations and measurement issues; its just what works best with one's ears that solves the problem.
I do think you can associate "analytical" with measurements as even JA himself has done so in the 5-15khz range. You can also do the same with speakers that have a more "mellow" balance in that region. I would agree that the term musical is up to the listener entirely. I would think Magico owners find their speakers just as musical as Sonus Faber owners, despite very different design approaches.
Hi, some additional comments:
The target from Kaiser is to have the dip at 3,8 kHz according to Munson and Fletcher curves of equal loudness. But to have almost linear frequency resoponse under 20 to 30 degree rotation of the speaker. The human ear integrates the frequency response of the direct and the diffuse field. It needs this speciality to adress the Blauert bands (human spatial hearing).
It is easy to optimize for flat frequency response. It is just one click in the frequency computer model. The art of engineering is to find the right requirement taken psychoacoustics into account.
Here is a link to the Kaiser website as well with more information about the curves. In German, but the curves are there anyway:
http://www.kaiser-acoustics.com/en/speakers/chiara/lautsprecherjahrbuch-2014-chiara.pdf
The target from Kaiser is to have the dip at 3,8 kHz according to Munson and Fletcher curves of equal loudness. But to have almost linear frequency resoponse under 20 to 30 degree rotation of the speaker. The human ear integrates the frequency response of the direct and the diffuse field. It needs this speciality to adress the Blauert bands (human spatial hearing).
It is easy to optimize for flat frequency response. It is just one click in the frequency computer model. The art of engineering is to find the right requirement taken psychoacoustics into account.
Here is a link to the Kaiser website as well with more information about the curves. In German, but the curves are there anyway
:http://www.kaiser-acoustics.com/en/speakers/chiara/lautsprecherjahrbuch-2014-chiara.pdf
As a SF owner, I happen to also like Magico's. IMHO, the Q3's and the smaller Q1's are excellent speakers...although I slightly prefer the Q3. I do think the tweets are a little 'hot'...but that applies to almost all metal dome tweets...to a greater or lesser extent ( to my ear, YMMV).
I could VERY easily live and be happy with the Magico's...
In fact, IF i were to move to a much larger room ( one where the GH's couldn't perform), the Q3's would be on my very short list.
a lot actually.
http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/272/#Od4MhBU7Puesqo5L.97
i haven't heard any of the new B&W models. i heard these at a local hi-end shop (back when they existed) in the late 90s and they were so awesome. bought them on the spot. they were my first true high-end speaker so maybe that has a lot to do with it as well ... ?
Marketing is more than just advertising. Advertising aside, Magico got samples out to Valin and Harley, free long term loans. Other third tier/ online "audio journalists" either get the speaker as a free loan or purchase for a very steep discount, much lower than what a normal person would pay.
In return, all these "journalists" do not mention the any flaws in the speaker in any of their write ups. The epiphanies only occur when the new model comes out....
Wolf is not doing this because he is a kind-hearted man running a charity. Those funds tied up in these free loans / discounted sales could have been invested in R&D, Operations, his own salary, his kids' college education, etc., but obviously he finds a lot of value in using the audio "journalists" as his marketing team.
Sorry, I had missed you post. I have tried many amplifiers on the B&WSS25, as they are there since long - the old Classe M1000, that cold sounded horrible, but after one day warm up sounded great, the Krell S300i - is was great match, both the Dartzeel NH108 and the 8550, the Devialet 400 and curiously I was not a fan of the cj's on them. The Mini II's played with the Devialet, the Dartzeel 8550 and the cj premier 350 (solid state, high power) but still only in the experience phase for a limited time.
The Mini's were
Caesar,
Fortunately I missed a pair being sold close to me at a very low price little time ago ...
I have owned them in the past. They need a room wider than mine, as they need a lot of space to breath and develop the bass, they love being played at "realistic" levels and need a lot of SS power, but strangely some funny tube amplifiers also manage to make them play at reasonable loudness. A good friend owned them with great success with the vintage ARC Classic 150's mono blocks. Many much larger full range speakers sounded small compared to the Extrema's. Plenty of slam, but not as defined or extended in the bass as some modern speakers. Loved the VTL recordings, percussion and voices, great on chorus.
Every time I listened to the Extrema in a small room it would sound anemic, lifeless and thin.
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