Contenders for Most Musical and Best Two-Way Mini-Monitors of All Time?

caesar · Apr 8, 2016

FrantzM said:
Hi

Caesar

From the start you eliminate one of the best 2-way mini-monitor I have heard. the Magico Q1. Your hatred of Magico brand is really altering your perception . Magico is accurate by that I mean it adds nothing. It is whatever you fed to it.

On that Magico Q1 comes first IMHO

Second a Classic which deserves more recognition. The Sonus Faber Electa Amator. Surprising speaker with more oomph than they're supposed and a midband as liquid as it is possible without being utterly colored. I hosted one in my system for a few months many (20, perhaps more) years ago.

Hey Frantz,
Come on, man! If I hated the whole brand, I wouldn't have brought up the their minis being great. And I have no problems with their S speakers either.

I do abhor analytical sounding gear. I know some people would love it, but wonder how many people would be able take a Q1 / Spectral system before jumping out of a window.

caesar · Apr 8, 2016

BlueFox said:
Can you provide a list of the Hall of Fame speakers you have owned and listened to over time versus the speakers championed by the elites that you have owned and listened to over time to validate your statement?

Thanks.

BlueFox,

I don't want to derail this thread, so feel free to start a new one. But look at how many people brought up older designs as musical. Yet read what you read from the elites is that the new stuff is always the "best".

So many high end audio "journalists" who pretend to look out for the Audio Fans, but are really marketing reps for the audio companies. Sure there are some good individuals writing about high end audio, but they are few and far between.

But from an industry perspective, the incentives don't really align for these media elites to be on the same side as audio and music fans. For some reason, all values, ethics, and integrity go out the window when it comes to getting very expensive audio toys for as free long term loans. If these gutless reviewers and "journalists" did make a negative comment about a manufacturer, they would lose the advertising and won't get free goodies, costing thousands of dollars - that they happen to like. Isn't it amazing how these guys are willing to compromise their honor and integrity for free use of manufacturer toys? So these disgusting elites have created a FUKC the Music and Audio Fan culture, and we all suffer as a result.

Personally, I trust the fans contributing on internet forums much more than the "audio journalists".

PeterA · Apr 8, 2016

caesar said:
Hey Frantz,
Come on, man! If I hated the whole brand, I wouldn't have brought up the their minis being great. And I have no problems with their S speakers either.

I do abhor analytical sounding gear. I know some people would love it, but wonder how many people would be able take a Q1 / Spectral system before jumping out of a window.

Fellow member Al M. and I just auditioned a dCS Rossini DAC through a Spectral/MIT/Q1 system at Goodwin's High End and it sounded fantastic. It is difficult to say how this system compares to mine built around analog, Pass Class A electronics, and the Mini 2, but we were very impressed. It exhibited a similar degree of high resolution and complete absence of fatique that I am used to hearing in my own system. Very impressive.

Regarding the Q1 as an entry into this Hall of Fame, I would suggest that it is an evolution of the Mini 2, which is an updated version of the original Mini. I think the Mini is more worthy simply because it is a more original design and broke new ground, imo, for what is possible in the world of mini monitors. It was designed and built to a completely new standard, and its price reflected that. People were shocked when it was released and it is the speaker that put Magico on the map. It was there first commercial project and established a standard for their future designs.

Many will dispute that, which is fine. It is only my nomination. The Q1, though perhaps a better performing speaker, is a descendant of the Mini.

Al M. · Apr 8, 2016

PeterA said:
Fellow member Al M. and I just auditioned a dCS Rossini DAC through a Spectral/MIT/Q1 system at Goodwin's High End and it sounded fantastic. It is difficult to say how this system compares to mine built around analog, Pass Class A electronics, and the Mini 2, but we were very impressed. It exhibited a similar degree of high resolution and complete absence of fatique that I am used to hearing in my own system. Very impressive.

Regarding the Q1 as an entry into this Hall of Fame, I was suggest that it is an evolution of the Mini 2, which is an updated version of the original Mini. I think the Mini is more worthy simply because it is more original and broke new ground, imo for what is possible in the world of mini monitors. Many will dispute that, which is fine. It is only my nomination. The Q1, though perhaps a better performing speaker, is a descendant of the Mini.

I agree with all that. The Spectral/MIT/Q1 system did not all sound 'analytical' during our demo, far from it.

FrantzM · Apr 8, 2016

PeterA said:
Fellow member Al M. and I just auditioned a dCS Rossini DAC through a Spectral/MIT/Q1 system at Goodwin's High End and it sounded fantastic. It is difficult to say how this system compares to mine built around analog, Pass Class A electronics, and the Mini 2, but we were very impressed. It exhibited a similar degree of high resolution and complete absence of fatique that I am used to hearing in my own system. Very impressive.

Regarding the Q1 as an entry into this Hall of Fame, I was suggest that it is an evolution of the Mini 2, which is an updated version of the original Mini. I think the Mini is more worthy simply because it is more original and broke new ground, imo for what is possible in the world of mini monitors. Many will dispute that, which is fine. It is only my nomination. The Q1, though perhaps a better performing speaker, is a descendant of the Mini.

+1 on the 2nd paragraph
I have not heard the system you mentioned in the first but have every reason to believe your recollection. I have heard Magico (Q7 and Q3) with All Spectral electronics and in both instances the results were superlative.

cannata · Apr 8, 2016

The Q1 is the best 2-way I have heard, and probably one of the all-time best loudspeakers, not just a 2-way (I would put money that Cesar had never really heard it, you can't "like" the Mini and hate the Q1, if you do you are not listening). I even thought of replacing my S5 with it at one point… But now I hear that the S1 Mk2 is even better (and what does the S5 Mk2 will sound like...)

PeterA · Apr 8, 2016

cannata said:
The Q1 is the best 2-way I have heard, and probably one of the all-time best loudspeakers, not just a 2-way (I would put money that Cesar had never really heard it, you can't "like" the Mini and hate the Q1, if you do you are not listening). I even thought of replacing my S5 with it at one point… But now I hear that the S1 Mk2 is even better (and what does the S5 Mk2 will sound like...)

I agree that it would be difficult to like the Mini and not the Q1. I don't know how different they actually sound, but they are related and differ in resolution, extension, lack of distortion and perhaps have a slightly different tonal balance based on the different tweeters and sizes of the midrange drivers.

Having heard both the Q1 and the S5, I would buy the Q1 unless I only listened to amplified rock, loudly in a larger room. Even with the new Mk 2 for the S series, I think the Q is built to a higher standard, has better parts, lower distortion, and overall is better sounding. Some might prefer the voicing of the S line to the Q line, but the Q is more neutral and resolving, IMO. I have heard the S7, but not the S1 and S5 mk 2 versions. I am very curious to know if, how and when the Q line will change.

microstrip · Apr 8, 2016

slcaudiophile said:
b&w silver sigs 25s best imho ... much better then mini's! they can be had for cheap too, if you can find a pair.

I currently have both at home - the Mini II and the B&W25. Very different sounding speakers. The Mini IIs are more transparent, go lower in the bass and, provided they have an adequate power amplifier and cabling, have a much larger scale and sound more powerful and bigger. They are more specific of positioning than the B&W. The B&W 25 have an unique holographic image, have great voices and sound unbelievable with the B&W demos CDs and some specific recordings. But they show some evident colorations when compared to the Mini IIs and are much less dynamic at loud volumes. Curiously the Silver Signatures sound great with the Beatles recordings ...

jep123 · Apr 9, 2016

The Kaiser Kawero Chiara might be the best 2 way speaker on the market. Built from the best possible materials, drivers and crossover parts. A design with no compromises, a masterpiece.

And because Magico is spending huge amounts of money on advertising does not mean that they make the best speakers in the world. Many people seems to forget this.

PeterA · Apr 9, 2016

jep123 said:
The Kaiser Kawero Chiara might be the best 2 way speaker on the market. Built from the best possible materials, drivers and crossover parts. A design with no compromises, a masterpiece.

And because Magico is spending huge amounts of money on advertising does not mean that they make the best speakers in the world. Many people seems to forget this.

I have not heard of the Kaiser. I'll look it up. Thank you for introducing it to the discussion.

Regarding Magico, I don't think anyone is claiming on this thread that they make the best speakers in the world. We are only nominating particular two way monitors to a list of significant designs included in a virtual Hall of Fame. Perhaps some of these nominations influenced how the industry progresses. Nothing more than that.

Yes, Magico does advertise heavily. And I don't think that people have forgotten that. Because of this advertisement (and reviews, BTW), people become interested in going out to hear their speakers. In some cases, this leads to sales. Those sales lead to revenue which enables Magico to spend heavily on research and development. This leads to better designs in the market place, more competition among available approaches, and more choice for the consumer. Is this not good for us, the end users who want to better enjoy their music?

Perhaps the Kaiser would not have been developed if it were not for the original Magico Mini. Or it was the other way around. Regardless, lots of nominations for this category for the Hall of Fame is surely a good thing, is it not?

JGlacken · Apr 9, 2016

Has anyone heard the Rockport Mira Monitor from 3-4 years ago?

andromedaaudio · Apr 9, 2016

Kaiser kawero best monitor in the world , well definetively not freq response wise , heavy coloured design no way around it , using duelund or whatever doesnt say much about whether it is outstanding as a design , mdf is dated as a LS material as well imo ( they also use vertex ? material apparently )
According to him the dip only occurs on axxis , mm

, hard to believe id love to see measurements that prove that 15 degrees 30 degrees off axxis whatever

Measured frequency response (in-room

far-field averaged): 20Hz – 20kHz ±8dB;

60Hz-20kHz ±5dB

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/kaiser-kawero-chiara-loudspeakers/?page=5

cannata · Apr 9, 2016

PeterA said:
I have not heard of the Kaiser. I'll look it up. Thank you for introducing it to the discussion.

Regarding Magico, I don't think anyone is claiming on this thread that they make the best speakers in the world. We are only nominating particular two way monitors to a list of significant designs included in a virtual Hall of Fame. Perhaps some of these nominations influenced how the industry progresses. Nothing more than that.

Yes, Magico does advertise heavily. And I don't think that people have forgotten that. Because of this advertisement (and reviews, BTW), people become interested in going out to hear their speakers. In some cases, this leads to sales. Those sales lead to revenue which enables Magico to spend heavily on research and development. This leads to better designs in the market place, more competition among available approaches, and more choice for the consumer. Is this not good for us, the end users who want to better enjoy their music?

Perhaps the Kaiser would not have been developed if it were not for the original Magico Mini. Or it was the other way around. Regardless, lots of nominations for this category for the Hall of Fame is surely a good thing, is it not?

Heard the Kaiser kawero, couple of times, they typically play in Munich. If you are into ribbons and somewhat anachronistic mid bass sound, they will do, nothing I did not hear before. I would prefer the Raidho for that kind of sound. But neither of them stand next to the Mini or the Q1 in terms of mid bass resolution dynamics and naturally.

Interesting comment about "Magico advertise heavily”. I subscribe digitally to to both Sterophile and TAS, and all I see is one ad, usually in TAS. Nothing close to Focal, B&W, Wilson or even YG. I am curious what magazines am I not reading?

slcaudiophile · Apr 9, 2016

microstrip said:
I currently have both at home - the Mini II and the B&W25. Very different sounding speakers. The Mini IIs are more transparent, go lower in the bass and, provided they have an adequate power amplifier and cabling, have a much larger scale and sound more powerful and bigger. They are more specific of positioning than the B&W. The B&W 25 have an unique holographic image, have great voices and sound unbelievable with the B&W demos CDs and some specific recordings. But they show some evident colorations when compared to the Mini IIs and are much less dynamic at loud volumes. Curiously the Silver Signatures sound great with the Beatles recordings ...

wanna sell your 25s? the thing i miss most about them is vocals ... i don't think ive heard another speaker that gets vocals so realistic. agree with you the 'advancements' in speaker technology has been able to deal with a lot of the various issues speakers of that era had. but message me if you want to sell. ill buy them if they are in excellent condition and you have the crossovers and stands.

jep123 · Apr 9, 2016

andromedaaudio said:
Kaiser kawero best monitor in the world , well definetively not freq response wise , heavy coloured design no way around it , using duelund or whatever doesnt say much about whether it is outstanding as a design , mdf is dated as a LS material as well imo ( they also use vertex ? material apparently )
According to him the dip only occurs on axxis , mm, hard to believe id love to see measurements that prove that 15 degrees 30 degrees off axxis whatever

Measured frequency response (in-room

far-field averaged): 20Hz – 20kHz ±8dB;

60Hz-20kHz ±5dB

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/kaiser-kawero-chiara-loudspeakers/?page=5

Kaiser are using Panzerholz, or Tankwood in their speakers. It costs 20 times more than MDF. "Worlds best" is of course a matter of taste.

andromedaaudio · Apr 9, 2016

Yeah agreed by looking better at the pics my mistake

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue73/kawero_chiara.htm

slcaudiophile · Apr 9, 2016

jep123 said:
The Kaiser Kawero Chiara might be the best 2 way speaker on the market. Built from the best possible materials, drivers and crossover parts. A design with no compromises, a masterpiece.

And because Magico is spending huge amounts of money on advertising does not mean that they make the best speakers in the world. Many people seems to forget this.

i dont understand this logic. so your reasoning is because a given manufacture happens to use a $400 cap in a speaker that makes it the 'best?'

jep123 · Apr 9, 2016

slcaudiophile said:
i dont understand this logic. so your reasoning is because a given manufacture happens to use a $400 cap in a speaker that makes it the 'best?'

Might be one of the best. It is an outstanding speaker, like many others. And yes, it is a non compromising design. Made without any cost considerations.

Hyperion · Apr 10, 2016

cannata said:
Heard the Kaiser kawero, couple of times, they typically play in Munich. If you are into ribbons and somewhat anachronistic mid bass sound, they will do, nothing I did not hear before. I would prefer the Raidho for that kind of sound. But neither of them stand next to the Mini or the Q1 in terms of mid bass resolution dynamics and naturally.

Please explain what you mean by "anachronistic" in this context in relation to the Kaiser Chiara's. The Raidho C1/D1 are quite different to the Chiara in many ways - even though I would categorize them both as truly musical speakers.

I'm a bit surprised that Magico is discussed within this category as among "the most musical". I guess it allt depends on what you define as "musical", where the Mini's were surely more fluent, organic and forgiving than the current Q1's. Magico, YG, Wilson etc. does not belong in the "most musical" category though imho. This is where you find Kaiser, Nola, Diapason, Verity, Devore...etc. based on my personal definition of the term.

To me, "musical" is a speaker (within the context of this discussion) that manage to present the music as a coherent, fluid, organic and balanced entity with natural timbre, which truly connects you to the music in a highly emotional way, disconnecting your intellect and analytical senses. Quite a few of the most highly regarded brands within the community as well as in the (advertised) press belongs in another category, where qualities more related to "sound analysis" are in fashion, where there's a continuing hunt for maximum transparency, resolution and bandwidth. Nothing wrong with that of course (we're all individuals with different preferences here), but to me - these are products that belong in a different category more or less.

The reality might not be as black and white as this of course - I'm trying to make a point here after all

- but this is my truth in general terms, based on my knowledge and experience.

/ Marcus

caesar · Apr 10, 2016

cannata said:
The Q1 is the best 2-way I have heard, and probably one of the all-time best loudspeakers, not just a 2-way (I would put money that Cesar had never really heard it, you can't "like" the Mini and hate the Q1, if you do you are not listening). I even thought of replacing my S5 with it at one point… But now I hear that the S1 Mk2 is even better (and what does the S5 Mk2 will sound like...)

Cannata, you come across as a very intelligent man in your posts. But why argue about taste? Some audiophiles prefer a zero sized model, chicken legs and all, who has DDD implants. Other guys prefer a big bottomed and big legged woman in a short miniskirt. : ) And everything in between. People reading this thread will listen for themselves and decide.

Interestingly, I get this same "you haven't heard it ‘right’ " stuff from dsd pushing guys. Yet the dsd technology is too harmonically rich and lacks fundamental for the way I like my recorded music played back. Aside from some truly superb DSD recordings, I think DSD is badly colored on most music.

You just gotta accept that subjectively people will not share your taste. I don't have any research to prove this, but it seems there are more audio fetishes than sexual fetishes out there.

Also, I am not as dogmatic about this stuff as you and others. I listen to “non-audiophile” music that I enjoy played - if I am moved by it, I like it, and if I don't I don't . Although hearing q1 with spectral again will make me slit my wrists, I would be willing to hear the q1 with some the biggest, baddest mother fukka class a amps on the planet (not pass xa!) or with some really large cat tube amps. But this likely won’t happen until wolf releases the new q1 with the improved tweeter.

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