advantage of multi amps system

tony ky ma · Nov 13, 2010

Hi guys
In the thread of constant power, I think to use multi amps can solve all the problems,a over power amp is not only matter of waste and also not sure can sound better, matching to the speaker always the most important things. in a multi amps system, you don't need high power for all of them, the total out put is add to getter, in my case of 4 ways, 50W for the sub, less than 10W for the others is good enough, amp in direct control the speaker driver always sound better to control the net-work, the only disadvantage is cost more (more cables and amps and crossover ). but in the best of audio is worth to do. may be price of a super high power amp just same of 4 small power amps too
tony ma

amirm · Nov 13, 2010

I love it! Every system I have at home and at our new showroom have independent amps for each driver. Beyond the advantages you mention, there is another key one. If your amp runs out of juice to drive the bass, its distortion will not bleed into the twitter. Since distortion manifests itself as harmonics (multiples) of the original frequencies, have the audio path separated this way nicely filters out a lot of the harmful effects of the distortion in the amp as it attempts to reproduce the peaks.

Now, traditionally cost to get this advantage has been high although powered speakers do bring that down some. A newer solution though exist now in the form of digital amps. These are integrated, efficient and small. So you can easily get a multi-channel amp in a small chassis and as a result, have more channels of amplification available at lower cost and size. Granted, a linear amp will probably perform a bit better but that is counteracted by the fact that it would be driving the entire speaker due to cost.

Steve Williams · Nov 13, 2010

amirm said:
I love it! Every system I have at home and at our new showroom have independent amps for each driver. Beyond the advantages you mention, there is another key one. If your amp runs out of juice to drive the bass, its distortion will not bleed into the twitter. Since distortion manifests itself as harmonics (multiples) of the original frequencies, have the audio path separated this way nicely filters out a lot of the harmful effects of the distortion in the amp as it attempts to reproduce the peaks.

Now, traditionally cost to get this advantage has been high although powered speakers do bring that down some. A newer solution though exist now in the form of digital amps. These are integrated, efficient and small. So you can easily get a multi-channel amp in a small chassis and as a result, have more channels of amplification available at lower cost and size. Granted, a linear amp will probably perform a bit better but that is counteracted by the fact that it would be driving the entire speaker due to cost.

only problem with that concept is that most speakers aren't made to be bi-or triamped

My speakers aren't

microstrip · Nov 13, 2010

tony ky ma said:
... the only disadvantage is cost more (more cables and amps and crossover )

I think that there are two main disadvantages - you need to have the expertise to assemble such a system, as there are a lot of variables to settle, and plenty of time. I have exchanged views with a few people who followed this route and assembled excellent systems, but all of them warned me of these aspects.

Sorry to be so negative.

Vincent Kars · Nov 13, 2010

It is not necessarily a DIY job.
There are a lot of active speakers for sale
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm

tony ky ma · Nov 13, 2010

I try to say one thing more in multi amps system is to use same type of amps for unity, not solid state in sub others in tube, has to be all SE or all PP, no mix up will have better result, that is my personal favor
tony ma

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 13, 2010

It is curious to me that however, listeining to say a single full range speaker, at low volumes, all day long, is less fatigueing than listening to a full blown standard three way (or more) system at low levels all day long. That says something to me but I have never put my finger on just what it is saying!

It's saying that the 3-way is distorting significantly more than the single "full-range" driver. If anything, it should be even more fatiguing at high volumes.

Tim

c1ferrari · Nov 13, 2010

One of the principal sonic advantages, I believe, of multiple amps is to place the amplifier after an external crossover and have the amps drive the transducer(s) directly. In my instance, the loudspeakers merit 4 identical channels of amplification.

Robh3606 · Nov 13, 2010

only problem with that concept is that most speakers aren't made to be bi-or triamped

My speakers aren't

Hello Steve

No but they can be converted with the right information and a bit of work. What you need are an accurate schematic and impedance measurements of the drivers in your cabinets. You drop the schematic into LEAP ,or another simulator, and get the network voltage drive for the drivers. You can use either the actual impedance curves or a fixed resistor load. You then use those curves as your target curves to design the active filters and go from there.

An example would be if you were going to bi-amp them. In LEAP you can combine active and passive networks into the same schematic and simulations. You would design the active network voltage drives based on the passive voltage drives. Once you get that done you can take out the required poles or poles from the network. Then you can work out any changes to the remaining poles and build the new passive networks along with the actives

I believe Marshland will do plugins for you if you provide the voltage drives. That doesn't help you with the passive network though. I have converted networks to bi-amp for a clone pair of L250ti Jubilees. Then built the networks and plug in cards for my JBL DX-1 analog active crossover. It was work but it turned out very well. Lots of fun if like rolling up your sleeves. I attached a file so you can see what the voltage drives look like in that system.

I believe, of multiple amps is to place the amplifier after an external crossover and have the amps drive the transducer(s) directly.

Yes but you can also have passive networks before the drivers to do any EQ required if you want to stay all analog. An example would be using a compression driver on a CD horn/waveguide. Depending on the Compression Driver Horn combo it can be easier doing a passive compensation. Of course if you go with a digital active crossover you can do all of it in the crossover as long as you have enough processing power and you know what the correct voltage drives are.

Rob

tony ky ma · Nov 14, 2010

tomelex said:
Hi Tim,

Good point there. Along with that (there is always more in audio!) I wonder if there is something to do with the complexity of the crossing over and phase and time smearing and other stuff as well due to those crossovers. Something about them things never did sit right with me. Again, thats crossovers in the speaks, not passive types. In fact, I suppose that a tri-amp 3 way big system may not bother me over the course of the day...maybe..oh well.

Cheers,

Tom

Hi Tom
Talking about fatiguing, my 4 way ( 2 way + add on sub and super high ) system will not happen to me no matter in high or low level, I think it will count on the source and the kind of amp, I will feel tire when I listen to CD+ solid state amp, even PP tube amp still not so OK, my favor is SE tube amp with out NFB, passive filter before amp, source in analog too, I am agree that time smearing and phase is the main issue
tony ma

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 14, 2010

tomelex said:
Hi Tim,

Good point there. Along with that (there is always more in audio!) I wonder if there is something to do with the complexity of the crossing over and phase and time smearing and other stuff as well due to those crossovers. Something about them things never did sit right with me. Again, thats crossovers in the speaks, not passive types. In fact, I suppose that a tri-amp 3 way big system may not bother me over the course of the day...maybe..oh well.

Cheers,

Tom

Crossovers cause all kinds of problems. Active crossovers, when done right, are much steeper, so, as I understand it, they cause fewer problems, because some of the most audible issues have to do with drivers trying to work outside of their range, and the steeper the crossover, the less that is an issue. So lower speaker distortion. As has already been mentioned, a good active system matches the amp characteristics to the individual drivers, and a single amp, peaking under a heavy bass peak, doesn't clip into the midrange and tweeter as well, where the distortion will be much more audible. So lower amplifier distortion. Almost last, but not least, a well-engineered active system can match amplifier characteristics to the resistance of the specific driver in question. A passive system, to do its best, has to be engineered to handle anything it might see. At their best, such amps are incredibly over-built and if they knew what their challenge was going to be ahead of time, and were engineered for the specific task, they could perform better, often with a lot less iron. The potential savings are significant and are evidenced by the many excellent active studio monitors sold at a fraction of competitive audiophile preamp/amp/speaker sets. There is also driver control. Superior damping. The benefits are many, but I'm not sure DIY active is a very good idea for most of us. I think it's more of an engineering task.

Tim

FrantzM · Nov 15, 2010

Hi

Steep crossovers slopes are a panacea .. Actually steep crossovers may in some instances, cause severe problems .. One of them ringing ... More later ..

Robh3606 · Nov 15, 2010

The benefits are many, but I'm not sure DIY active is a very good idea for most of us. I think it's more of an engineering task.

Hello Tim

If you are converting a passive system to an active or to a biamp version it can be a bit of work. Well worth it though when you pull it off. You learn a lot doing it and it's fun. If you just want to give multiamps a try it can be quite a bit easier. All you need is a decent driver set the amps a digital active crossover and you are good to go. You would be surprised just how good these homemade active set-ups can sound. They obviously take some work to set-up properly but once you get them dialed in you can be in for a real treat.

Rob

c1ferrari · Nov 15, 2010

Robh3606 said:
You drop the schematic into LEAP ,or another simulator, and get the network voltage drive for the drivers. You can use either the actual impedance curves or a fixed resistor load. You then use those curves as your target curves to design the active filters and go from there.

Hmm...this LEAP looks interesting.

tony ky ma · Dec 24, 2010

Hi Rob
My 4 way amp system all in tubes I did use a 4 way switchable active crossover( silicon) for checking the best range for all the drivers before to set a fix one, and found out 4 fix passive filters drive by a power tube (300B) as the crossover, much sound better than a active one, also only one side filter for the mid-high and mid-low, let that two drivers roll off in the other side by themselves , add on style in sub and super high has the best result, extra filters will damage the sound quality, less is the best I belief, picture show my home made crossover
tony ma

JackD201 · Dec 24, 2010

Okay tony, you have me intrigued yet once again! What are those tubes sticking out of your active crossover? Also how do you adjust the Q, shelfs or knees?

muralman1 · Dec 24, 2010

I have stuck to the crossovers built into my speakers. I know another music lover who went active. Then, after years of trying this and that active crossover configuration, he returned to the stock passive crossover admitting the designer got it right. He has the same brand speaker I do, Apogee.

tony ky ma · Dec 24, 2010

JackD201 said:
Okay tony, you have me intrigued yet once again! What are those tubes sticking out of your active crossover? Also how do you adjust the Q, shelfs or knees?

Hi Jack
My crossover may be can't call active, it is 4 passive filter 600 ohm with out put level control volume 12db/oct inside, drive by a 300B tube connect between pre and power amps, tubes sticking out because tube is taller than the old Ampex case in recycle use , each channel only with one filter and roll down by the driver itself, crossover point is sub-80hz, mid-low 600hz, mid-hi 1k hz super hi 15K hz. power amp is direct control speaker driver, level out put control can adjust the frequency respond in better level. all my speaker driver is JLB vintage 15" sub face down 360 degree brief hole to back wall (modified) with 50W amp, 5" with horn box 12W amp, LE85 horn and lens 8W amp 2405 and lens 8W amp, I already posted pictures in tweak but I do again in here
tony ma
tony ma

advantage of multi amps system

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