Linn LP 12... anyone else still like this design?

microstrip said:

RogerD,

To be fair, I would not spend usd 2500 on a 30 year old Linn . I would either spend around usd 500-800 maximum refurbishing and upgrading it, or I would buy a different turntable.

If the turntable was not abused the bearing would still be perfect - it was built with Teflon and should last indefinitely if there is oil inside. I would however replace the suspension springs with the black steel type, and may be the armboard with a sandwich type. Some people reinforced the bearing zone with large thick washers and epoxy (Araldite type), or a machined part long before the Cirkus.

If you are a DIY man, look for parts for the upgrade at the UK eBay - many people who upgrade their turntables will dump the old parts there for a cheap price. You can get the needed Linn custom oil for the bearing also there - the oil is mandatory.

The Lingo was really too expensive for just a 95V power sine oscillator. If you get an old PS300 power supply and a 22 nF (I have to check this value ) capacitor you can have a cheap Lingo. Or, if you turntable has a pulley that matches your mains frequency build your own Naim Armageddon.

Surely, the upgrade strategy will depend on the exact model and condition of your LP12.

Just editing my post to add the more needed upgrade to a 30 year old Linn - a new belt!

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Thanks for the response,

The LP12 is in very good shape. I will replace the springs,check the motor oil condition and I have the new belt and board. The best thing is to get it functional and go from there.

mep said:

The reason I asked the question was because if the tonearms and cartridges were different (and you said they were), then you aren't listening to the difference between the Technics and the LP-12.

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I know that is a philosophy proposed by Raul and other people, but I'm not sure, in the real world, that it's true. I think there are "great" matchups of arms and cartridges on a particular turntable that could possibly overcome the sound of a turntable, but they would have to be really specific ones.

I just heard u-tube under linn radikal, audio hi-fi, the second one listed, Radka Toneff, "Fairytales" and wondered what people thought. I heard the cd at oneobgyn's, and my brother bought me the lp. I believe the lp is digital.

mmakshak said:

Radka Toneff, "Fairytales" and wondered what people thought. I heard the cd at oneobgyn's, and my brother bought me the lp. I believe the lp is digital.

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All the songs in the LP are digital except for My Funny Valentine which is analog. The music is too good for me to even think of digital or analog. It's one LP I can't get tired of listening through the decades.

The LP12 was the first high end table that I heard but somehow I never got to buy one, perhaps due to my friend's feedback re the 45rpm problem then. It needed an adapter. Today, I still long to get one but I get turned back by all the add-ons needed and mods here and there. If I spot a good condition original, I'm going to be really tempted...

Thanks for the insight on the songs on that lp, Jadis. The utube version with the Linn Radikal made me forget that song had some digital in it(a good thing). BTW, I'm not anti-digital(although i believe it has done some damage in the past).

mmakshak said:

Thanks for the insight on the songs on that lp, Jadis. The utube version with the Linn Radikal made me forget that song had some digital in it(a good thing). BTW, I'm not anti-digital(although i believe it has done some damage in the past).

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You're welcome, mmakshak. I'm not anti-digital myself as many of my favorite albums were done the digital way. It's not the pudding, but the eating.

There is a comparison of "Caruso" between Linn lp12 Radikal and Linn lp12 Lingo 1 on u-tube. It's under Pasinee M4V04005 and Pasinee Lp12 Dynamik Radikal "Caruso". Although there are other things that are different, I do believe the Dynamik Radikal sound comes out. He also has the Toneff album with the two different motors, which shows to me that I can tolerate digital much better with the Dynamik Radikal. The only other needle drop that I've heard with the AC motor that interests me, was with a Mana table underneath the Linn, before the subchasis was changed to a non-Linn one.

I think the LP12 is a great table. I am biased though as that is the table that I use, however it has been "greatly" modified. My table has a beautiful Brazilian Rosewood Plinth.....which I'm sure does nothing for the sound, but Wow, is it pretty to look at! It has been also modded with what was called the Pink Link from Pink Triangle/Funk Firm. Basically what they did is changed out the top plate, changed the AC motor to DC and moved it's position to around 7:30ish and ditched the Linn power supplies for an outboard DC battery powered supply.

What does all this accomplish? Moving the motor to the 7:30 position works better with the stylus in the groove (keeping the action more inline with the motor opposed to the broadside pulling where it used to be), the DC motor and power supply provides the quietest of backgrounds....the music emerges from a total black silence which enhances the micro dynamics and the dynamic shading of music. The power supply is extremely stable which gives a rock solid rpm. When you listen to the long held notes of a piano for instance, there is absolutely no wobble or wavering.....the pitch stays right on. The music takes on more refinement, but still has a great sense of flow and movement to it. It really engages your emotions. I also use the Naim Aro tone arm with the new Benz Ruby ZH, the zebra wood bodied moving coil. I prefer it greatly to the Linn Ekos. The Ekos seemed to highlight the bass and make the recording sound like a recording. With the Naim ARO, the music still has great bass, but it is all better balanced and the music comes through naturally. The LP12 with the Naim ARO is so synergistic together, you have to hear it to believe it.

I was fortunate enough to find a place in Chicago.....many years ago that had several LP12's set up where we could A/B the same table/arm/cartridge but one with Valhalla, the other with Lingo and another with the Pink Link mods. He also had another three LP12's set up the same way, but with the Naim ARO. I spent the entire weekend with him auditioning the various set ups and greatly preferred the LP12/ARO/Pink Link DC power supply. To my ears, listening to this combination....you simply forget about the equipment and become immersed in the music. That's what is most important to me.

Almost all of those things that you mention are supposed to be improvements, especially the Naim Aro, for which Linn made a special Keel(the one-piece subchasis). The motor position, and the 7:30ish position has been discussed(Pink Fish Media, Linn forum, and?). There is a new firm making a top plate, that has received good reports. The only thing(I'm deciding on the Dynamik Radikal{the Linn DC motor}, after I do a few things first.)that holds me back a little is hearing needle drops on a very good-sounding Linn that had its subchasis changed, and I actually felt it was a downgrade. You were very fortunate to be able to compare those combinations, and I wonder why we don't hear needle-drops of various turntables, as I feel these can reveal a lot of things. It sounds like you have a very good source.

Hi mmakshak,

When you say, ".....The only thing(I'm deciding on the Dynamik Radikal{the Linn DC motor}, after I do a few things first.)that holds me back a little is hearing needle drops on a very good-sounding Linn that had its subchasis changed, and I actually felt it was a downgrade....". All I can say is try to find a way to hear the table set up the way you want it and listen with an open mind. I say with an open mind because I believe it's important to leave any and all preconceived notions at the door. If the music resonates in your heart, then you'll know if you will like it or not and whether or not the price of admission is worth it. It's not always easy to find something like this close to home, but the amount of money that is asked for this table with these "upgrades/options" it may be worth the fraction of the purchase price to spend on a weekend get-a-way trip to hear it.

Thank you for the kind words in regards to my analog source. I truly do love it a lot as it communicates the essence of the music to me in a way that I have yet to hear from any other source. That certainly does not mean that there are not other great and/or better sources out there. There certainly may be; I just have not yet had the opportunity to hear them. But in regards to the title of this thread...."Linn LP12...anyone else still like this design?" My answer is resoundingly....Yes, I love this design and think it is still capable of competing with other designs currently being offered today.

Hi No Regrets,

You have me curious now. What would you say the battery DC power did for the table(I've heard some battery supplies for a pre/dac, that made a heck of a difference.)? On the Dynamik Radikal(heard from needle-drops) the speed sounds much better than many turntables(for some reason I get the impression that direct-drives have to get the speed right, everything else be damned. I don't believe music is like that.). I think Linn says that there is some (electrical?)interference that occurs when you use an ac motor.

Hello mmakshak and DaveyF,

In regards to the DC Battery Power Supply on my Linn LP12 and what it does for the table and it's sound. It really does a number of things and I will try my best to describe my impressions, but please bare with me as I am probably not the best at putting my thoughts into words.

First of all, my DC supply will power the table at both 33 1/3 and 45 rpms by simply rotating a knob on the front of the power supply. Inside the power supply box are trim pots where you can dial in exactly the correct speed. This power supply does an excellent job of maintaining pitch stability. Their is not much that I hate worse than listening to a piano for instance holding a note and hearing the sound wavering about, or hearing an orchestra reach a huge climax and then listening to it's reverberations sound throughout the hall wavering on it's pitch. You won't find that happening with this supply.

Secondly, with the DC supply the music emerges from a totally black background. The best I can describe it is when listening to a really great performer in live concert. For example, I listened to Midori (famous violinist) play completely acousticly, with no amplification what so ever in our music hall. When she would start a phrase, the sound from her violin seemed as though it came out of a black hole, so to speak and it was soooo pure! This is what the DC power supply does. I believe that it eliminates the AC grunge that comes in on the line. The benefits of this come in the form of quietness, which allows for really great micro dynamics, a greater sense of dynamic shadings, which I believe goes a long way in communicating the musical message as it were. It also allows for startling, dynamic, transient attacks..... providing the rest of your system is up to the task, of course and the feeling of purity...both of tone and of whole.

Thirdly, because of the combination of excellent pitch stability, quiet black backgrounds giving the wonderful dynamic shadings.....the DC power supply provides the music with a great sense of movement. It doesn't sound as if it is racing or being forced, nor does it sound lagging. What it does sound like is natural as opposed to mechanical or electrical. It lets the music sound as if Midori is playing naturally in the hall, versus a reproduction of her playing in the hall. It sounds nimble and refined and effortless. Another example would be to compare a Conservatory of Music cello student to Yo Yo Ma ( I'm using Yo Yo Ma because virtually everyone has at least heard a recording of his or has seen a video of him performing as opposed to some of my favorite cellists who may be more obscure.) While the Conservatory student can have a nice tone and may be technically proficient enough to hit all the right notes and mostly be in tune, and therefore give an overall pleasing performance, it doesn't come naturally yet. When watching the student you can see the stress and tension in his face, in his body posture as he is fighting to force his fingering positions on the neck and trying to time that with his bowing technique. When you watch Yo Yo Ma perform, there is absolutely no tension in his body. He is fluid, nimble, and at ease. The cello and bow simply become an extension of himself and the music flows naturally and effortlessly.....nothing being forced or coerced as he is a Master of his instrument. This is hard for me to explain, because not everyone is blessed with being able to hear wonderful live acoustic music on a regular basis and unless you have been able to do that, I feel that you truly will not understand what it is that I am trying to communicate to you. What I can say though, is that once you hear your vinyl played on this DC system, you may no longer be able to tolerate hearing it on a system that differs.

The comments that I am making here are of course the opinions from listening to "my" DC power supply on my LP12. I will not presume that all DC power supplies will give you all of these benefits as there is so much more that goes into a power supply than just whether it is powered by AC or DC. Just as there may also be DC supplies out there that will surpass what I am using as well.

I am responding to your inquiries so late tonight because I was traveling today. I was able to stop in a very highend audio salon today and listen to an $8000 table, $3,000 arm, with a $7,000 cartridge. It was all very beautiful looking, however it lacked the naturalness, the effortlessness and liquidity of my DC powered LP12. Was this because the table that I heard was powered with AC or do to some other part of the audio system that it fronted? I do not know. What I do know is that this company's more expensive models use DC, so they must figure that there is some perceived benefit from it's use. More importantly, to the revelance of this thread.....the LP12 is very definitely still able to compete with and/or surpass todays current offerings from other designers.

In answer to the other question......No, I am not using the Keel upgrades..... I've never heard it yet in the flesh. I would be interested in hearing all of the various options that are now available for the LP12, but as I said in an earlier post.....I would listen though with an open mind leaving any preconceived notions checked at the door. Everyone has been blessed with their own individual set of ears and therefore one person may hear things differently than someone else. What appeals to one person may not be appreciated by another? So what is sometimes being offered up as an upgrade, may be considered by someone else as simply an option. I'm sorry that I cannot be of more help in regards to the Keel. However, may I suggest you look up Peter Swain from Cymbosis HiFi who has an exorbitant amount of both knowledge and experience with the LP12 and all of it incarnations, options/upgrades, and synergistic pairings. He is one heck of a gentleman too!

Sorry if I rambled on for too long. I hope though that it may be of some help.

Thank you, No Regrets. I agree about differences, even in DC supplies. I appreciate your description. BTW, I believe that Cymbosis carries that aftermarket top plate(they are a well-known Linn expert on setup of the LP 12.). For what its worth, I believe the conventional wisdom is to get the Dynamik Radikal before the Keel(i.e., it makes more of a difference), if you are going in that direction. Oops, I almost forgot the "k". Another BTW, I believe that you can hear a needle-drop of the difference between Lingo 1 and Lingo 2 on utube by Panisee. I do know that Lingo 1 benefits from 3 triplepoints from Mapleshade. It's a shame that the 3 triplepoints aren't too stable. To show you how up-to-date I am, I'm getting ready to add Stage 2 to my Mana(replacing an Ikea Lack table for height) for the Linn.

mmakshak said:

Thank you, No Regrets. I agree about differences, even in DC supplies. I appreciate your description. BTW, I believe that Cymbosis carries that aftermarket top plate(they are a well-known Linn expert on setup of the LP 12.). For what its worth, I believe the conventional wisdom is to get the Dynamik Radikal before the Keel(i.e., it makes more of a difference), if you are going in that direction. Oops, I almost forgot the "k". Another BTW, I believe that you can hear a needle-drop of the difference between Lingo 1 and Lingo 2 on utube by Panisee. I do know that Lingo 1 benefits from 3 triplepoints from Mapleshade. It's a shame that the 3 triplepoints aren't too stable. To show you how up-to-date I am, I'm getting ready to add Stage 2 to my Mana(replacing an Ikea Lack table for height) for the Linn.

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Your welcome mmakshak. I would agree with you that the Dynamik Radikal should be done before the Keel as well. At this time I am not pursuing the Keel. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worthwhile looking into, but rather that I am more than content with my analog front end as it is right now. I still get goosebumps when listening to it, even after all these years! I also have other endeavors in which my descretionary income must be directed to at the moment.

It's good to see that you are paying close attention to what you sit your LP12 on. It's support can be very influential on the quality of sound that it reproduces.

DaveyF said:

Great post, No Regrets. I have to question whether a battery power supply is ultimately the best way to go in a TT power supply......because, they are notorious for loosing control as the batteries wear down. I'm not saying that this applies to your particular supply, however, my experience with the Jeff Rowland battery supply for his amps, clearly showed this issue and pushed many an a'phile ( including myself) away from batteries. How do you know when the drain on the batteries is too much and/or it is time to replace? Isn't the TT inherently slowing down when this occurs?

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Thank you DaveyF. I also had the same concern way back when I was first considering this particular setup. You'll have to forgive me, as I am far from being a technical expert on this. However, I will try to explain (at least what I feel is my understanding of it) how it works. This power supply is quite large. Much larger than what the Lingo was. Inside my power supply there is a large, lead sealed battery as well as a bunch of circuitry. It is my understanding that within this circuitry it facilitates the monitoring and charging of the battery as well as the complicated servo circuits that keep the rotation of the platter at the correct speed. I have no idea how long the battery is supposed to last. I wouldn't be surprised it the life of the battery would last for a few years. However, I am in the habit of changing out all of my batteries (this power supply, smoke alarms, remote controls, flash lights, etc) on an annual basis...New Year's Eve. On many ocassions I have listened to records for several hours at a time with no loss in power or slowing down of the platter. Firstly, this is something that I would immediately hear as I am also a musician. As such, I am greatly attuned to pitch, which would be affected by the slowing of the rpms and I am very sensitive to the timing of music. Secondly, from time to time I also verify with my after market KAB strobe just to keep my ears honest, so to speak. I am actually amazed (and thankful) that this supply and DC motor has continued to faithfully serve me for all of these years. If and/or when it does finally does give up the ghost, I would definitely check into the Funk Firm as well as Linn's options for replacement.

I would have to defer you to either Peter Swain for details of the Linn option ( I know of no one more knowledgeable or nicer to communicate with than him) or to Arthur of Funk Firm for more information on his new K-Drive in which I have absolutely no doubt in my mind would be an outstanding power supply. A lot of thought, research and development goes into making this supply work.

I don't know if this was of any help, but unfortunately it's about as technical as I can get.

DaveyF said:

Thanks, No Regrets, that's very informative. I am considering a different power supply for my LP12 and am leaning towards either the Funk Firm or the Lingo 2 or 3. Btw, you may want to try a Seismic Sink under your Linn, I found it to make a huge difference and was a much better solution than mounting the TT on a shelf--particularly on a shelf attached to a wall.
I also think that your Naim Aro is one of the best arms for the table, certainly bettering the Ekos arms and the Ittok.

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Thank you for the suggestion of trying the Seismic Sink under my LP12. I'm glad that it has been working so well for you. If ever given the opportunity, I will certainly give it a try. I am always open to try new things.

I do believe that the quality of sound coming from the LP12 can be greatly affected by the type of support one uses for this table. As an experiment, I built my own version of a wall mounted system as I needed to decouple the table from my sprung, hardwood floors (suffered from footfalls). Not only was I successful in doing that, but I do believe that in the manner in which I designed this support system I was also able to decouple the table from the wall as well and still ended up with a "light weight, but rigid" stand which is what Linn recommends the most for the LP12. I have been so happy with this experiment, that I have left it in play.

I can't agree with you more about the matching of the Naim ARO with the LP12. It's funny because back when I was interested in buying this rig, I thought I was set in my mind that I would be getting the Ekos....that is until I was able to hear(with an open mind) direct comparisons with the ARO. I have never regretted the decisions I've made to this analog front end.

I wish you the best of luck with your journey of selecting your new power supply. Please keep us posted as to how you progress along this path.