Why Vinyl Records and Other ‘Old’ Technologies Die Hard

Al M.

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Andrew Stenhouse

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Thanks Al, interesting about the film for Camera's. Oh yes hang onto those CD's! I wish I still had mine, long after they were ripped, and lost, in various computer iterations.

Can't wait till you grab a Rossini. Very interested in that development.
 

fas42

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And by the way, on dCS players (the dCS Rossini may be my next upgrade) CDs are supposed to sound better than files ripped from them.

Other things being equal, that most likely will always be the case. An integrated CDP has a single master clock, which totally controls, synchronises all the operations and processing of audio data within the unit - as soon as audio is fed in from outside the unit, files from a server, say, then you have the situation of the input data stream running to a different clock - the theory is that it's possible to get "perfect" reconstruction of that external input within the player ... but ...
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Other things being equal, that most likely will always be the case. An integrated CDP has a single master clock, which totally controls, synchronises all the operations and processing of audio data within the unit - as soon as audio is fed in from outside the unit, files from a server, say, then you have the situation of the input data stream running to a different clock - the theory is that it's possible to get "perfect" reconstruction of that external input within the player ... but ...

Asynchronous USB between player mechanism or PC and the DAC pretty much puts that to rest. The DAC clock is in complete master control under this scheme and the player and its feed of data to the DAC is all highly buffered. There is no contention between two clocks. Data is transmitted from the player buffer to the DAC buffer as needed by the DAC, using control commands sent over the two-way USB link. Reads by the player into its buffer are also governed by this, so there is sufficient buffering to prevent buffer overruns or underruns, which would cause dropouts if they occurred, which they do not. I never, ever have dropouts with my own asynchronous USB DAC.

It is actually an elegantly simple and inexpensive scheme, since the logic chips for it are common and widespread. It is now in very wide use in computer audio, USB DACs and beyond. Not saying it is perfect. It might be dependent on the specific implementation, but I think it works pretty well.

The other scheme favored by some is I2S, where he player clock pulses are transmitted to the DAC, which is "slaved" to them as a "clock". The clock wire is in addition to the data wires, which might typically be spdif or AES/EBU. This is a synchronous scheme and it is how it works when everything is inside the player. But, not all equipment supports that to an external DAC, and it may still have a susceptibility to jitter on the clock wire. Ideally, the DAC clock should be very close to the DAC chip to minimize jitter, which I2S does not do.
 

fas42

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Yes, asynchronous USB is the way to go - but does the Rossini do that? One very early, intelligent implementation that stuck in my memory was the first Stax player: it used a "cheap" Sanyo CD player with the Stax electronics slung underneath in a separate metal box, own power supply; very short wiring fed from the top of the Stax into the belly of the Sanyo with a master clock line, all the relevant circuitry in the Sanyo was disabled, it was merely used to handle the CD digital retrieval ... was given very good marks at the time for its sound.
 

Atmasphere

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Not sure I agree with the author. Old technologies hang on for the simple reason that they may not be actually inferior.

For example, the side valve has been long-gone in internal combustion for decades. We use overhead valves now. Why? Because they are better in just about every way. No-one except collectors use side valves.

The LP is different. The era of least production was 1992-1993 and its been on the rise ever since. You don't have to know anything technical to understand why: the market simply wants it. I suspect that part of the reason is that the LP has more bandwidth (30KHz is no worries, which means you get less phase shift, even if you don't use that bandwidth) and they don't have to be as compressed as CDs because there is no expectation that they will be used in a car. Here in the Twin Cities the local music scene has been such for the last 20 years that if you don't put out an LP, your band hasn't really arrived on the scene. So oddly, you can find LPs of local stuff and its actually been harder until the last couple of years to find LPs by national or international acts. Kids drive the market, not us audiophiles. If they want vinyl and they do, its going to be around.
 

bonzo75

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Not sure I agree with the author. Old technologies hang on for the simple reason that they may not be actually inferior.

For example, the side valve has been long-gone in internal combustion for decades. We use overhead valves now. Why? Because they are better in just about every way. No-one except collectors use side valves.

The LP is different. The era of least production was 1992-1993 and its been on the rise ever since. You don't have to know anything technical to understand why: the market simply wants it. I suspect that part of the reason is that the LP has more bandwidth (30KHz is no worries, which means you get less phase shift, even if you don't use that bandwidth) and they don't have to be as compressed as CDs because there is no expectation that they will be used in a car. Here in the Twin Cities the local music scene has been such for the last 20 years that if you don't put out an LP, your band hasn't really arrived on the scene. So oddly, you can find LPs of local stuff and its actually been harder until the last couple of years to find LPs by national or international acts. Kids drive the market, not us audiophiles. If they want vinyl and they do, its going to be around.

Exactly. Old horns, valves, vinyl...this is a good post from DIY audio on old tech


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post2948616

"I thought I'd elaborate on why the top sixties HiFi was better than most junk you buy today. But this is not for discussion. I will simply state 6 good reasons, and you can stuff them in your pipe and smoke them.

1) Engineers were older, had lived through WW2 and had a much broader background in Radio and antennas and high frequencies and would even make their own components like coils and oiled paper capacitors. They had far better mental arithmetic ability than most of you, and could use a Smith chart for matching impedance and a slide rule for calculation much faster than you can with computers:



2) I have no particular axe to grind on transistors versus valves, and in fact classic performers like the Radford STA25 had a single rail transistor preamplifier driving a valve output stage with a defined source impedance. But they were Class A designs with all the lovely cancellation of common-mode that makes them sound so good. The power supply for instance had only to drive a constant current and all electrolytic capacitors had the proper bias which keeps them linear.

3) Record pickups were wide bandwidth and low source inductance moving coil designs. These avoided trying to jump out of the groove due to LC resonances which plagued later moving magnet designs and LP crackle and pop was less obtrusive.

4) Bass speakers would often be 10" paper cones in huge solid closed boxes mounted literally as bookshelves against a wall. Tweeters would often be simple 3" paper cones with a single capacitor crossover. It didn't much matter how good the speaker surround was, because acoustic suspension essentially kept the speaker linear. Frequency response was probably not the last word, but rolled off gently. In fact the reputable WLM La Scala speakers rather recreate these babies.

5) Components like transistors were doubtless not as fast, but then feedback was kept much lower too, so gross distortions like slewing tended to be avoided in favour of gentle rolloff of frequency response.

6) Recording engineers really knew their equipment like the backs of their hands. They set up levels to avoid overload and at their peak would record straight to the record-cutting lathe via a mere couple of microphones with no recording console worth mentioning. The result was breathtakingly direct recordings like Count Basie with Frank Sinatra, which if you've never heard them on Vinyl with it's 70dB signal to noise ratio, well you haven't lived, my friends! "
 

Al M.

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I suspect that part of the reason is that the LP has more bandwidth (30KHz is no worries, which means you get less phase shift, even if you don't use that bandwidth)

With upsampling as it is used in modern DACs you can use shallow filters whch minimize phase shift. As far as I know, nobody uses brickwall filters anymore.

and they don't have to be as compressed as CDs because there is no expectation that they will be used in a car.

I listen mostly to classical, classical avantgarde, and jazz. My CDs show no to little compression because that is usually not applied in classical music, and in jazz to a lesser degree than in pop/rock as well. I am also pleasantly surprised how relatively little compression the CD of Green Day's 21st Century Breakdown has which I have listened to quite a bit lately.

Compression in pop/rock has always been around in the LP days, even though I'll grant you that it was less severe than often these days. The alternative version (bonus track) of "Behind Blue Eyes" on my CD of Who's Next by The Who (1971) shows much less compression than the official, well-known version. Why? Presumably because it was never slated for release (on the CD itself apparently the master tape is reproduced straight, without further compression).


Here in the Twin Cities the local music scene has been such for the last 20 years that if you don't put out an LP, your band hasn't really arrived on the scene. So oddly, you can find LPs of local stuff and its actually been harder until the last couple of years to find LPs by national or international acts.

Nice to hear.

Kids drive the market, not us audiophiles. If they want vinyl and they do, its going to be around.

Ain't that the truth. That's why audiophile's hopes for a vast high-rez digital catalog are a delusion. It will never happen. Better have a DAC that makes the most out of the standard Redbook format. The dCS Rossini can makes CDs sound like great analog, in both tonality and resolution. That is not just my opinion, but also the one of Peter A. who has auditioned it together with me, has always been unconvinced by digital so far, and only listens to analog at home:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...win-s-High-End&p=379841&viewfull=1#post379841

We just never knew what regular CD was capable of, until now, three decades later.
 

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