Experiences with longer speaker cables

Gemini

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2015
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Hello,

I would be interested in hearing about practical experiences with, and recommendations for, longer speaker cables. Our living/audio room is currently being refurbished and I am thinking about moving the audio gear to a rack on the long side wall. Preferably (from an interior decoration perspective) also the amp would be placed there to be less visually intruding. Also, I currently have an integrated amp which would not work very well when the front-end is on the side. This would require longer speaker cables of approx. 21'/7m. It seems that mostly it is recommended, for reasons I do not fully understand, to keep SC's short and rather have longer IC's, but some studies I read emphasize that any effects are only audible when distances are quite a bit longer, or with higher gauges cables or particularly inefficient amp/speaker combinations.
My speakers are 8 ohm/101dB on 25W tube amps, so theoretically voltage drop should not really be a practical issue?
 

jfrech

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Sep 3, 2012
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Hello,

I would be interested in hearing about practical experiences with, and recommendations for, longer speaker cables. Our living/audio room is currently being refurbished and I am thinking about moving the audio gear to a rack on the long side wall. Preferably (from an interior decoration perspective) also the amp would be placed there to be less visually intruding. Also, I currently have an integrated amp which would not work very well when the front-end is on the side. This would require longer speaker cables of approx. 21'/7m. It seems that mostly it is recommended, for reasons I do not fully understand, to keep SC's short and rather have longer IC's, but some studies I read emphasize that any effects are only audible when distances are quite a bit longer, or with higher gauges cables or particularly inefficient amp/speaker combinations.
My speakers are 8 ohm/101dB on 25W tube amps, so theoretically voltage drop should not really be a practical issue?

My dealer has tried this both ways. 25 ft interconnects vs 25 ft speaker cables. He choose the speaker cable path...The cables were Transparent Audio, and their networks can optimize for length of cable...so maybe this factored into it. I have heard his system many times with these long speaker cables...sounds fantastic
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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The big issue is long speaker cables can get very expensive, both due to length and requirement to size up to maintain the same resistance.

If your system is balanced then longer ICs are a no-brainer, single ended it becomes more difficult as the component driving the long cables needs to have adequate drive. If this is the case it's likely your still better off with longer IC cables.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
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Coincidentally, I just posted my own personal views and experience on this in another forum:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/cable-length-between-components-27924/#post521330

I have not retested my own beliefs for some time, since I revamped my system for Mch over 8 years ago. Since the surround channels required 10 meters or more from the main system at front and center, I was forced to confront two issues: (1.) interconnect length vs. speaker cable length sonics, and (2.) the realization that even modest name brand, "audiophile approved" cables in a 10 meter length would be outrageously expensive.

My experiments convinced me that short speaker cables with long balanced XLR interconnects were the way to go and that high priced, highly advertised cables conferred no significant sonic advantage vs. more reasonably priced alternatives from "internet underground" sources. Cable differences are usually slight and not worth agonizing over. I could live with most, though not all, cables I have auditioned. Because of that, comparative listening to different cables is one of the most boring and frustrating things an audiophile can spend precious time on.

The reality is that most cable swaps, for me, did not create anything remotely approaching a jaw dropping difference. There were a few exceptions among some modestly priced cables that just did not sound good by comparison. The electrical nature of cable interactions with tube gear might be susceptible to a greater difference than I have been able to hear with my solid state gear.

I would not trust dealers or cable manufacturers on the subject of interconnect vs. speaker cable length, or much of anything, really. I have never seen an amp or speaker maker recommend anything but short speaker cables, though it is true that most take no position on this.

Length could be an issue for you if you wanted to audition some alternatives yourself. Most dealers just stock standard lengths, but there are many internet sources who will custom build cables to your length requirements and let you do an in home audition with return privilege. Have fun if you can, but it is usually not fun because of the typically smallish differences. And, the proliferation of brands and models is mind boggling.

Incidentally, I wound up using XLR cables from bettercables.com and speaker cables from anticables. I had formerly been using top of the line Cardas cable. I was convinced that the $279 at the time bettercables XLR interconnect sounded slightly better in a 10 meter length than my previous Cardas XLRs had in a 2 meter length.

You can get name brand cables built to length from Audioadvisor with return privilege. I also earlier went through several audition cycles 4 cables at a time with The Cable Company, but they were limited to standard lengths for audition and they offered no outright, money back return privilege. I did buy from them once well over a decade ago. Maybe their policy has changed. But, I likely would never use them again. I did not find their advice knowledgable or trustworthy or their brands inexpensive.

Again, all my views, experience and beliefs are totally, 100% subjective based on careful, but sighted auditions, plus quite a bit of Internet research on cables. So, use what I say carefully and apply your own listening experience.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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I would not trust dealers or cable manufacturers on the subject of interconnect vs. speaker cable length, or much of anything, really.

Are you kidding me? Generalize much? You think the same way about race and religion? This is uncalled for bullshit, seriously offensive... Maybe think a bit before you post your hate. I'm sorry you've had issues but this is almost as bad as racism.
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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. . . . I would not trust dealers or cable manufacturers on the subject of interconnect vs. speaker cable length, or much of anything, really. I have never seen an amp or speaker maker recommend anything but short speaker cables, though it is true that most take no position on this. . . .

I wouldn't trust them either. Years ago when I was in the market for some fancy long speaker cables a dealer told me it was no problem (and it ISN'T a problem) but that since I was tri-amped, the investment would be about $120,000 -- NOT a typo. Needless to say, I did not go that route with that dealer. Later, I decided to move the amps closer to the speakers.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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I wouldn't trust them either. Years ago when I was in the market for some fancy long speaker cables a dealer told me it was no problem (and it ISN'T a problem) but that since I was tri-amped, the investment would be about $120,000 -- NOT a typo. Needless to say, I did not go that route with that dealer. Later, I decided to move the amps closer to the speakers.

So all dealers are idiots because you got one bad recommendation this one time? Ridiculous...

Steve, please don't allow this crap. It's trolling at best.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Nov 3, 2014
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Are you kidding me? Generalize much? You think the same way about race and religion? This is uncalled for bullshit, seriously offensive... Maybe think a bit before you post your hate. I'm sorry you've had issues but this is almost as bad as racism.

Sorry if I pushed your button. But, wow. Hate? Racism? It is just my own personal opinion based on my experience and totally devoid of those kinds of epithets, real or implied. And, I have indicated I would rather trust non-cable equipment manufacturers. That includes you, does it not? So, why take this so personally? I am not asking you to agree with me.

I have thought about what I said. My opinion and its wording stands. Any slights, insults, stereotyping, etc. is purely in your mind, my friend, not in my words.
 

DaveC

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Well, WBF has already drove all the reviewers out. Might as well continue and drive the dealers and manufacturers out too.

If you don't see the issue with condemning people in a group in a similar way to a hate group than I don't know what to say.... except if I were Steve there would be an amendment to the TOU that doesn't allow for such ridiculous, divisive crap to be posted.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Nov 3, 2014
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Are you kidding me? Generalize much? You think the same way about race and religion? This is uncalled for bullshit, seriously offensive... Maybe think a bit before you post your hate. I'm sorry you've had issues but this is almost as bad as racism.

Ah, OK, my mistake. I had your identity confused. You are indeed a cable manufacturer. So, I see better now why this is so personal for you. Still, my opinion is what it is, and I am quite sure I am not alone in holding it. But, chill out, man. This lashing out does not serve your reputation or credibility well.

Meanwhile, we would be interested in your own views on the thread's topic, which is long/short interconnect/speaker cables, if you can get a grip and focus on the topic at hand.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Ah, OK, my mistake. I had your identity confused. You are indeed a cable manufacturer. So, I see better now why this is so personal for you. Still, my opinion is what it is, and I am quite sure I am not alone in holding it. But, chill out, man. This lashing out does not serve your reputation or credibility well.

Meanwhile, we would be interested in your own views on the thread's topic, which is long/short interconnect/speaker cables, if you can get a grip and focus on the topic at hand.

MY credibility?! You've gotta be kidding me. It's YOU who are making offensive blanket statements about entire groups of people.

And as far as the topic, maybe check the post RIGHT ABOVE YOUR FIRST POST? That's where I replied to the topic at hand.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Perhaps a reply explaining the opposing viewpoint would be better than attacking the posters' personal experiences, and then them personally for their experiences? I don't see that them saying they do not believe a dealer with a vested interest in selling products is in the same category as racism and hate speech; that seems like quite a stretch. I don't believe all car dealers, either, but still buy cars from them. I just do my research, which includes asking them to justify whatever features and add-ons they are trying to sell. Don't think that I hate them, nor they me, but maybe they do and simply have not said so.

On the original question, a 25 W tube amplifier probably has pretty high output impedance, and the speakers are very efficient, so if they do not exhibit some significant dip in impedance I would expect little issue running 7 m of speaker cable. That is really not all that long; 7 m of 12 AWG wire is going to add about 0.1 ohms to the output of the amp, which I strongly suspect is a fraction of the amplifier's output impedance and low enough to not cause significant loss in sound volume or quality. At these impedances additional inductance and capacitance in the speaker wires is unlikely to be an issue with respect to frequency response.

That said, I agree with everyone else (DaveC included) who suggest longer interconnects, especially if balanced, may be a better solution. Long single-ended interconnects can pick up noise, though you can buy cables that minimize that by using an additional outer shield.

IMO - Don

Edit: I think perhaps the posts coming right after DaveC's response were treated by Dave as personal attacks since they questioned the credibility of dealers and he is one. I rarely look at sig lines and frankly didn't connect the dots; I respond to the post without looking at the industry affiliation. I suspect the other posters did the same so without realizing it by lumping all dealers they included Dave and it looked like a personal attack on him specifically. Or something like that.
 
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Gemini

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2015
43
5
238
Germany
Thank you all for your replies to my questions.

The problem obviously is that long speaker cables (and to some extent also long interconnects)are quite unusual (some manufacturers even don't manufacture them), so it is very difficult to try such long cables and almost impossible to compare different brands/types. Price-wise my impression is that the difference in cost between long IC's and long SC's shouldn't be too big and not be a decisive factor.

I just found a study by Empirical Audio which strongly recommends longer speaker cables. But the preference of most forum members here seems to be different?
 

Gemini

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2015
43
5
238
Germany
DaveC, DonH50,

as I wrote in my original post, the reason for raising this question is that I currently have an integrated amp, running several pairs of IC's for different sources seems to be a lot of hazzle. Also, we have our fireplace in the middle of the front wall, so the amp would need to sit on the floor in front of the chimney, not a nice solution.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Ah, I missed that you had an integrated amp. Never mind!

I don't really consider 7 m all that long for speaker cables. I suspect a lot of people have speaker cables not much shorter than that. Long to me is to an amp stack anywhere from 30 m to 100 m (or more) away.

There are several good arguments against long interconnects but it depends upon the situation. Probably the biggest two off-hand are greater susceptibility to noise (EMI/RFI) and greater chance of forming a ground loop. Balanced interconnects usually solve these issues, and there are solutions for single-ended connections as well.

IMO - Don
 

still-one

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Aug 6, 2012
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Ah, I missed that you had an integrated amp. Never mind!

I don't really consider 7 m all that long for speaker cables. I suspect a lot of people have speaker cables not much shorter than that. Long to me is to an amp stack anywhere from 30 m to 100 m (or more) away.

There are several good arguments against long interconnects but it depends upon the situation. Probably the biggest two off-hand are greater susceptibility to noise (EMI/RFI) and greater chance of forming a ground loop. Balanced interconnects usually solve these issues, and there are solutions for single-ended connections as well.

The only place you need 100m cables is on a football field, not in anyones home.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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have ordered new speaker cables for our new setup...should arrive in a few weeks. One length is 20' and one length is 31'...due to the positioning of the amp, and the fact that the cables are run under the floor through a conduit. Transparent Audio will calibrate them so they measure the same even though they are different lengths.
 

Argonaut

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Jul 30, 2013
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have ordered new speaker cables for our new setup...should arrive in a few weeks. One length is 20' and one length is 31'...due to the positioning of the amp, and the fact that the cables are run under the floor through a conduit. Transparent Audio will calibrate them so they measure the same even though they are different lengths.

I was half mulling over your old XL's LLoyd, however they are only 4 meters longer than I require ! :)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I was half mulling over your old XL's LLoyd, however they are only 4 meters longer than I require ! :)

really! Is this at KJ? The XLs are just fantastic. Yes, i think they were 4.5m length?
 

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