Bring Back the CLS

FrantzM

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True it is a matter of choosing your poison. FWIW, I was a panel speaker up to recently.. New slew of dynaic speakers have me convinced that they have gotten very good; now I am much interested in Horns or waveguide-based speakers. One thing hasn't change in my world-view: Multiple (dynamic) subs regardless of what the mains would be.
 

bonzo75

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Deeper, maybe, but "better"? I have not been a fan of the big Soundlabs, as I have stated before, and am really curious what you and others think of them today. Last time I brought it up, I was dismissed because I have not heard Soundlab in many years (still true, no dealers around). Nor have I spent any time recently with ML speakers, although the little I have indicated (to me and perhaps nobody else) that the issues they (at least that I felt they) had ten-plus years ago integrating the woofer and panels had been much improved. Still think they cross a little high, but years ago I thought the integration was really poor and it seems much better today. Probably just me. One reason I like Magnepan is they generally provide a more seamless image to me from top to bottom than most of the ESLs I have heard. In any event, the call for a return of the CLS begs (to me anyway) the comparison to Soundlab designs, and I am curious.

Frantz, I do not think the multiple drivers issue is cut and dry. Too many variables at play, and as Gregg said they do have their own set of problems. It's all a compromise among a myriad of design trades, natch.

I am not a fan of Soundlabs. Heard Ultimate twice in different rooms, and one A1. None of the rooms were huge but the signature of the speakers was not to my taste. I prefer Quads and Acoustats in full range, and there is also a German speaker called Audio Exklusiv which has two full range choices, one wider than the other, but the lower model (retail 8k EUR) can be found used for 3 - 4k EUR and is pretty good. I never liked the CLS, too lean in the bass for me and sweet spot too narrow. I want to listen to a well set up CLX with subs. Also want to listen to triple stacked Quads. Quads do lack dynamics and bass as compared to the others, but heard that triple stacking them can compensate for this, not sure how
 

DonH50

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Hey Frantz,

Back when I started using panels, very few dynamic speakers could match their low distortion and very good impulse (time-domain) response, at least at moderate volume. These days conventional designs have gotten much better IMO. Still don't get the floor-to-ceiling sound coming at you except from the bigger models, and dispersion is still an issue (as is the back wave from the panels, reference your first sentence), but the gap has narrowed. I would love to hear some of the top-notch speakers mentioned here but few if any dealers around here carry them, and I have lost the time and energy to spend days just shopping around (and dealers are likely to be less forgiving; it was easier when I worked at the stores that carried high-end lines).

As for subs, I have a quartet of Rythmik F12's in my little room, for smoothing the response rather than for output. Wouldn't be without them, and IME/IMO good subs are more of a requirement with panels than conventional speakers (though I think they are needed with the vast majority of speakers of any flavor). For dealing with room modes and boundaries multiple subs are about the only practical solution.

FWIWFM - Don
 

DonH50

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I am not a fan of Soundlabs. Heard Ultimate twice in different rooms, and one A1. None of the rooms were huge but the signature of the speakers was not to my taste. I prefer Quads and Acoustats in full range, and there is also a German speaker called Audio Exklusiv which has two full range choices, one wider than the other, but the lower model (retail 8k EUR) can be found used for 3 - 4k EUR and is pretty good. I never liked the CLS, too lean in the bass for me and sweet spot too narrow. I want to listen to a well set up CLX with subs. Also want to listen to triple stacked Quads. Quads do lack dynamics and bass as compared to the others, but heard that triple stacking them can compensate for this, not sure how

Heard HQD's back in the day but never a triple stack, that is new to me. Adding panels provides more output and takes the lower cutoff a little lower but still doesn't match the dynamic range of good conventional speakers nor the deep bass of good subwoofers. It's not just excursion but also modes in the panels that can cause problems.
 

Big Dog RJ

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I am not a fan of Soundlabs. Heard Ultimate twice in different rooms, and one A1. None of the rooms were huge but the signature of the speakers was not to my taste. I prefer Quads and Acoustats in full range, and there is also a German speaker called Audio Exklusiv which has two full range choices, one wider than the other, but the lower model (retail 8k EUR) can be found used for 3 - 4k EUR and is pretty good. I never liked the CLS, too lean in the bass for me and sweet spot too narrow. I want to listen to a well set up CLX with subs. Also want to listen to triple stacked Quads. Quads do lack dynamics and bass as compared to the others, but heard that triple stacking them can compensate for this, not sure how

Hey Bonzo, here we go again…
I need to correct something that you have stated according to my observations.
1. When you say Quads don’t do bass and are not dynamic: you are making a general statement that any person who would be actually interested in Quads, may think that “they can’t do bass and aren’t dynamic.” Now that’s a load of bollocks mate.
2. They can do bass and are very dynamic but not to the point of a dynamic driver type design because they are not designed that way in the first place. Therefore, when you say they can’t do bass, what type of bass are you referring to? Is it dynamic driver bass? Is it 20hz below bass? Is it sub woofer type bass? …
3. As a matter of fact; maggies and other stats (FULL Range) cannot match the bass that the Quads do, both on specs & in demo- I have heard them!
4. Maggies, from the entry level up to the MG3.7i, the lowest they reach is only around 35hz, some models not even 37hz. This doesn’t mean “maggies can’t do bass or lack bass.” Maggies can do bass and they’re bass is very fast, plus the tweeter ribbon is super fast with ultra high performance, so having more bass would actual kill the rest of the frequency and the entire maggie panel would be totally out of balance- just like what the Analysis ribbons are to me.
5. To me the AA’s are very erratic, they are super fast and have sonics going in all directions, either the bass has come and gone, the mids hit you very strongly with great force and the highs are equally fast, again I couldn’t enjoy the music for more than a good hour. However, in that case AA's are more dynamic and faster than Quads plus other stats Full Range.
6. The previous Quads, such as the ESL63 & 57 were solely designed to be pristine in the midband, and still to this day cannot be matched. Those earlier designs were actually mono speakers initially done by Peter Walker, hence bass was never an issue.
7. Fast forward 30 years +, the new Quad ESL2905/2912 are big stats and they can do bass very well. They respond to the signal in an effortless manner, with superb depth, palpable soundstage and once again a pristine midrange. The bass is all there, very much so when I had and owned so many versions of maggies, the only ones that surpass the new Quads in terms of overall bass are the MG3.7 series and MG20 series. None of the others can match the Quad bass, unless of course a sub woofer/tower was thrown into the equation.
8. I also noticed if I am correct, you have had only one encounter with the 2905 using Musical Fidelity amplification. These are British by design and MF was never known to produce deep bass compared to its American counterparts. So therefore, I should say “MF can’t do bass or lacks bass” They can do bass but the bass they can do would defer to every person, therefore for me to make a statement like that would be totally incorrect.
9. If you listen to a live concert, small jazz ensemble, or acoustic performance “unamplified” or in its most natural state- this is exactly what Quads and maggies can produce, and to that I refer to as the “absolute sound.” Well balanced, completely captivating, and highly musical, therefore bass is plenty and in total control. I suggest that you audition either the 2905 or 2912 with amplification such as VTL, Byrston, McIntosh, ARC, C-J and the like, and then honestly tell me that these Quads can’t do bass…
10. That leaves me with this final point, bass definition to you would be totally different to me, and to nearly every member on this forum. When my Quads were being serviced, I was using a pair of monitors, Quad 12L’s, they are superb for just $500! They don’t produce low bass at all but they do produce a mid-low end that is tuneful and bass that you can feel. It won’t push a tremendous amount of air at your face nor would it make the room rumble but it will produce some captivating music that is highly addictive. Similarly, this is what maggies can do, they are very affordable across virtually any budget, you don’t have to be a CEO or drug dealer to own a pair of maggies. From their very entry level model to their top of the line offerings, they present the BEST value across all of audio has ever know, and this is the one main reason why I was considering listening to them extensively and beginning to learn more about their newer designs. Especially the .7, 1.7, 3.7i & 20.7 series are superb value all round to now an even larger audience of music enthusiasts. Well done to maggie on this new line up!
In Summary: Quads not having bass and aren’t dynamic is only to YOUR ears, and not the general public. In that case I should say that Wilson’s have too much bass, and Genesis Audio has so much bass with its towers that the other frequencies don’t matter because you can’t hear it, rather just drown in bass…
Every frequency spectrum comes across differently and every designer has built and designed their systems in a very unique way, otherwise every dam speaker would sound exactly the same. What’s the point in that?
Therefore, before I make general comments, I would encourage the person to listen for themselves and then decide if something is lacking. Just recently I head a pair of 2912’s driven with a very affordable amp by Vincent. Plenty of bass and awesome soundstage, excellent vocals, midrange and well balanced highs to the point I was actual wondering why spend 10 times more on better amplification when this thing sounds so wonderful?
Bonzo, I sincerely feel that the MF amps regardless of stereo or mono power or what mods they had/didn't have, didn’t do justice in driving the stat bass. Try any VTL amp or Sanders Magtec on the Quads and then let me know. Oh! If you do get the chance to try out a MC452 (McIntosh 452w/ch fully quad balanced amplifier) on the Quads, please do let me know on the bass and dynamics- I have one sitting in the living room right now ready for a spin on loan for the long weekend (labour day on Monday). Enjoy your music!
Cheers, RJ
 

bonzo75

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Big Dog, I found Acoustats more dynamic that Quads, and with other stats, I would choose hybrid Logans over Quads for that same bass and dynamics reason.

I don't disagree Quads are superb VFM, possibly the best VFM.

Like I said before, I don't like the lower end Maggies as much, but they are also great VFM
 

Big Dog RJ

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Value for Money

Big Dog, I found Acoustats more dynamic that Quads, and with other stats, I would choose hybrid Logans over Quads for that same bass and dynamics reason.

I don't disagree Quads are superb VFM, possibly the best VFM.

Like I said before, I don't like the lower end Maggies as much, but they are also great VFM

Hey mate, No, no! that's the biggest issue I am having right now, Quads especially the newer ones 2905/2912's are NOT VFM.
I really don't know about the US market other than when I was there during the early to late 90's, nor can I confirm the UK market but in Australia, these 2905/2912's are nearly 22 grand a pair! Maggies are just half of that! and so if you were to buy these big Quads here, you'd have to spend at least another 20 grand or so to get the amplification going. With maggies, you can get a brand new pair of MG3.7i's for under 10 grand, and so you have ample spare cash (if the case be) to source the best in amplification- and you there! You see my point?

Similarly, AA ribbons, are dam expensive as well. The smallest in the range, Omicron's go for 16 grand a pair and the Epsilon are around 26 grand a pair. So, forget the Omega's or Amphi's, you're talking drug money here...
The prices don't seem to be dropping either for brand new or second hand market. Therefore, we are limited in choice when it comes to budgets or real people with families and other commitments. Obviously, if one was on their own and like I said earning top dollar, then of course sky is the limit.

The dealer who has a pair of SF Exema's (same dealer as McIntosh and the rest in Melbourne), is proudly selling the pair with a big poster stating "SF Exema, hand crafted in Itlay, only pair in Australia, $100,000 limited edition". That's great! because the only aspect I see that is "limited edition" is the 1inch layer of dust collecting on top...
The MG1.7 is way better, who on earth is going to buy a pair of high grade monitors at 100 grand? (normal human being with functionality in the head). And mind you, this price is just for the pair of speakers, stands NOT included, add another 10 grand to that.

Someone in Dubai, Quatar or thereabouts, I can see a pair of SF Exema's in the tea room, or even the kitchen, so then yes! compared to these Quads are definitely VFM.
Take it easy mate and have a good one.
By the way, did you manage to draw up a list of your final choices in speakers?
How did you go with the GT (stat hybrid's) from Greg? I haven't come acorss these as yet over here, I don't think anyone would be offering the GT speakers in Aus land. Would certainly be a good audition I reckon, just as I learnt about the AA ribbons. That was great because it led me back to maggies, and I defnitely don't regret it this time around.

Also, were you able to by any chance get to audition the MG20.7? I think overall the best amplification for these has to be the Pass X. series amps, again another massive price tag over here, forget that! were talking close to 6 figures for a pair of top line mono's. In that case the C-J ART amps are far more affordable.

Cheers mate, let me know how you find above and the MG20.7, like to know what you really think about them.
RJ
 

bonzo75

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No it's tough, not many in the EU that have the 20.7. Will do eventually.
 

bonzo75

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Let me know if you want to buy used 2905 from here, I could start a nice business brokering between here and Australia.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Hey mate, I bought my pair of 2905's in 2011 brand new, at nearly 20 grand. Would there be a buyer in your nick of the woods who would like to have a pair in pristine condition? No point bringing those over here, I highly doubt that now with the revelation of the new maggie line up, anyone looking for real value would even consider these Quads. Unless they were totally nuts about their history and of course that pristine midrange, like myself.
Let me know if there is someone you happen to know, lets chat.
Have a good one till then, cheers
RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

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Getting back to the original post - Bring back the CLS (sorry to venture off onto Quads, my fault.)

Yes, the CLS were probably the only full range stat ML made with real passion towards stats. I had these very briefly before going back to maggies. The CLS were very open, quick, and quite transparent in the mids and highs, plus mid to nearly low bass. That was about it, they couldn't do much bass lower than around 50Hz, I also tried matching it with various subs & x-overs but felt there was a major mis-match in balance. Played on its own, they were great stats and required a solid amp with stable power supplies. On certain recordings I remember though the mids to highs were sometimes too thin, sort of lean sounding but then again this could be the source/recording I really don't know. After a while the panels started to give trouble, not any fault of the design, just that the humid/highly tropical climate were the worst for stats and panels. The only panel that lasted for at least 3-4 years straight were the maggies. Even my previous Quads failed badly in this climate.

Fast foward 25 years, now I reside in Melbourne, tropical weather not an issue, great for stats, therefore I would love to own a pair of CLS's again but no longer made.
I heard the CLX driven with Vitus Audio amps, pretty good I must say but I felt a bit more bass would have helped, that real low gutty kick & clean deep bass is certainly not there in the CLX. It does go down to what it can do, which I guess to some may be just fine.
Anyone know if these CLS's are still produced out there? Or perhaps someone has started making them as a hobby, would be nice to hear them with some new gear.
A classic stat design I must say! Cheers, RJ
 

Argonaut

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Hmmmmm, Vitus power > CLX not a match made in heaven IMO, whilst they will neve ESWL your kidney stones away, should you wish to experience the quality of the CLX's base (Measured down to 46db in room) I would recommend a pair of ARC Ref250's, VTL 450 MKIII's or similar.

The CLS's mid to upper spectrum performance also benefits from similar partnering in amplification.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Yes, agreed on the Vitus Audio, and no doubt the ARC or VTL would produce better results. I think at the time, the Vitus were connected to Marten's, there was just one other chap who wanted the CLX's demoed badly and couldn't wait for propoer set up with the much bigger Mac amps that were around but not hooked up. Hence, the VA were used...

At the time I had the CLS's, I did have two kinds of tube amps; one was the Manley Ref 350's and the c-j Premier 11A. They were quite good in driving the CLS's nothing wrong there other than on certain recordings, some mid frequencies sounded a bit thin, I guess it was the recording and not the CD player. CD player at the time was a c-j DV2b, awesome unit. I still miss it terribly to this day. Never survived the tropics either, all of the caps started failing one by one, eventually the entire optical block failed. Sold it off after fixing and went back to a simple Arcam that lasted forever...
Agreed again, that the CLS stats do sound much nicer and warmer and fuller when driven with tube amps, no doubt about that, and a TT to the equation, you're in heaven! Wish I could have holded onto them for much longer but they never made it far enough.

For those that have ML CLS's still around in good condition, enjoy your music!
 

Argonaut

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Agree, the ruthless nature of the ML panels caused me to toss a good 40% of my CD collection into the bin, metaphorically, charity shop donation in reality, my favourite sources during my time with CLS IIz's being Studer R2R, Sony Elcasett and Nak cassettes.

Replacment panels are still available from ML with the advantage of sporting their latest panel technology.
 

Gregadd

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CLS is available used.Last time I made a purchase panels went for $1500. Last time I talked to ML there are no plans to offer replacement transformers or even refurbish them. The will make repairs.
Many of the CLS problems were due to assicited equipment. Subs have made major advances along with digital.
 

mullard88

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Going back to the original post, has anyone listened to subwoofers lying horizontal on the floor. To me, the bass sounds smoother and better integrated to the satellite speakers when the subwoofers are lying horizontal on the floor. This were my impression with both the two driver and three driver Entec subwoofers.
 

JackD201

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Do you mean driver forward instead of down firing Sam? I don't remember the Entec configuration. I actually thought they were band pass because of the slots.
 

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