Audiophile Marketplace and Manufaceturer Nervosa

Gregadd · Mar 3, 2016

I thought this would be a good place to discuss the audiophile marketplace and how it affects audiophiles. This is a competitive market. You may be a tinker/hobbyist and thought you could share yout product and make a few dollars to boot. All of a sudden you find your runnig a business with bills and salaries to pay.The last thing you want is to go bankrupt. That fear makes you do things that you question as to whether it has any sonic value. But you do it anyway because you don't want your product to sit on the shelf. Some of the things may not have a prticular sonic value, but if you want to be competitvie you might do it anyway.
Putting an exotic finish on our equipment

Twelve-inch tonearms
Little wooden blocks on your cables
Using Gold and silver and Platinum
Diamond and other exotic materials on tweeters
Gold traced circuit boards
Fancy measurement techniques and equipment
Thtat's just to name a few.
Balanced vs single ended
My product is priced to low to beleive it is a true high end product

I think I can safely say manufacturers worry that audiophiles will pass on their equipment because it dies not address the fad du our.
Not all fads are bad. I recall a car salesman telling me that air bags were the number one inquiry of potential car buyers. I think a la lt criticism audiophies ce is rooted in this area.

How do ou think the marketplace affects audiophiles?

Al M. · Mar 3, 2016

Gregadd said:
Putting an exotic finish on our equipment

[...]

Diamond and other exotic materials on tweeters
Gold traced circuit boards
Fancy measurement techniques and equipment
Thtat's just to name a few.

Diamond-coated tweeters have a technical and audible purpose. The diamond coating makes them stiffer. Madfloyd's M Project speakers have them, and they are the best speakers I have ever heard.

As for fancy measurement techniques and equipment: unlike many of my fellow digiphiles here believe, digital does not measure perfectly. Yes, according to a few traditional measurements perhaps, but that seems somewhat irrelevant, given three decades of obviously imperfect 'Perfect Sound Forever'. dCS (Digital Conversion Systems) use fancy measurement techniques and build their own measurement equipment according to their own specifications. They model and implement their digital circuitry based on their 'fancy' measurements.

The current audible result is that the dCS Vivaldi and the dCS Rossini are by far the most natural-sounding digital that both Peter A., who at home only listens to analog but is deeply impressed, and myself have heard to date. There is a deep chasm in quality between this and everything else that we have heard thus far, certainly when it comes to reproduction of PCM Redbook CD.

So obviously dCS must be among the most knowledgeable people regarding digital audio technology, and their fancy measurement techniques and equipment clearly fulfill a significant purpose.

So perhaps you should be a bit more careful classifying such things as 'manufacturer nervosa'.

JackD201 · Mar 3, 2016

I think "nervosa" is a part of any manufacturing business. My dad would always tell me there is a short list of things that can wipeout any man instantly: gambling, a bad woman or business!

Gregadd · Mar 3, 2016

All you said is basically true.
Let's not stop there.Take a simple thing like balanced design. Have you heard the term "true balanced design. Despite the fact that many deem singles ended superior or at least deem balanced design is unecessary there is a serious temptation to offer XLR input/output.The reasonable explanation is fear that some might pass on thier equipment because it is not balanced. It's the same with diamond tweeters or eotic measurements. I may not think diamond tweeters are warrannted, but I don't want my speaker tok sit on the shelf because the cutoemr thinkst's nanother product issuperior.The same thing applies fancy measuring techniques.

Gregadd · Mar 3, 2016

JackD201 said:
I think "nervosa" is a part of any manufacturing business. My dad would always tell me there is a short list of things that can wipeout any man instantly: gambling, a bad woman or business!

A good woman can mess you up too.:b

jadis · Mar 3, 2016

For me, I've learned that the simplest way to rid myself of nervosa is to stop reading those audio magazines. And it has worked.

JackD201 · Mar 3, 2016

Gregadd said:
A good woman can mess you up too.:b

Counsel, there is a difference between good and gooooooooood.

Gregadd · Mar 3, 2016

identity crisis

We can see an inability to commit. The possible reasons.
1. An actual belief that balanced is better.
2.An actual belief single- ended is better.
3.Customer convenience.
4.Fear that a customer will choose balanced over single- ended.
5. Fear a customer will choose single -ended over balanced.

JackD201 · Mar 3, 2016

Of all, absolutely all of the manufacturers I've talked to that offer both RCA and XLR might the units be true balanced or pseudo balanced the reason given is always customer convenience.

thedudeabides · Mar 3, 2016

Depends, in part, on how insecure one is and the apparent "self induced" need to have the latest and greatest.

Several years ago, the thought of designing and selling a $200K+ speaker seemed somewhat absurd. Now they are common place with several brands (and more to come) selling speakers in the $500K+ range.

Same can be said (on a relative scale) with electronics, etc. $100K turntables, $15K cartridges, $200K amplifiers, $50K interconnects and speaker wire. One has to ask where does it end.

The only folks that make the products viable are the uber rich. I am not criticizing the wealthy but merely making what I believe is an honest observation.

TheMadMilkman · Mar 3, 2016

Gregadd said:
View attachment 26094
We can see an inability to commit. The possible reasons.
1. An actual belief that balanced is better.
2.An actual belief single- ended is better.
3.Customer convenience.
4.Fear that a customer will choose balanced over single- ended.
5. Fear a customer will choose single -ended over balanced.

Inability to commit, or intelligent design choice?

We know (almost all) ARC gear is balanced, so the question of which they believe is better is answered. After that, having both connections guarantees interoperability with the customer's other gear. No adapters or new cables required.

More gear should be designed this way.

Rodney Gold · Mar 3, 2016

Same as cars.. you dont need , but think you might want, all the bells and whistles..
Heated massage seats dont do much to performance
A statement product has to have it all..

Gregadd · Mar 3, 2016

TheMadMilkman said:
Inability to commit, or intelligent design choice?

We know (almost all) ARC gear is balanced, so the question of which they believe is better is answered. After that, having both connections guarantees interoperability with the customer's other gear. No adapters or new cables required.

More gear should be designed this way.

I don't want to get into religious debate.:b

So if my associated equipment was single -ended, I might pass on the ARC purchase if it did not offer the single ended option?

Committing to the better option is similar to Spectral.Use the cables we like or take a hike.(yes I know they have modified stance.That also proves my point.)

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 3, 2016

Balanced is theoretically better, though the advantage is moot unless you have long cable runs. High-end design choices that are theoretically superior but practically unnecessary are a hallmark of the high end. No need to single out ARC, or any other company. Is it a form of audiophile nervosa? If they believe it makes an audible difference when it does not, sure. Otherwise, it's just marketing.

Tim

caesar · Mar 3, 2016

Gregadd said:
How do ou think the marketplace affects audiophiles?

Great music generates very powerful emotions in people, as powerful as some very strong drugs, or even more. In order to get more and more of the emotional high, people look to spend more money. At the same time, companies need to innovate to stay alive. Yet not all ideas are created equal - some ideas result in a bigger breakthrough than others. But if you are not seen as innovating by many folks in this business - regardless of whether innovations improve or worsen sound, you don't get any coverage. So we have marketing campaigns for things like gold-encrusted _______.

bonzo75 · Mar 3, 2016

caesar said:
Great music generates very powerful emotions in people, as powerful as some very strong drugs, or even more. In order to get more and more of the emotional high, people look to spend more money. At the same time, companies need to innovate to stay alive. Yet not all ideas are created equal - some ideas result in a bigger breakthrough than others. But if you are not seen as innovating by many folks in this business - regardless of whether innovations improve or worsen sound, you don't get any coverage. So we have marketing campaigns for things like gold-encrusted _______.

People don't spend money on gear to get emotional highs through music. They do it because they are a bunch of addicted junkies. All of us are. We have a weird hobby let's face it. Some buy for sound, some buy for no more reason than satisfying a box swapping itch, some buy because it's a bargain, some because it has a next door service. And a mix of reasons. On certain components they get onto a bandwagon and keep upgrading to next DSD number or whatever that component does (Arc 5, 5Se, 6, 7, 8, 9).

But please don't justify gear spend with music. I have a different hobby for music. Involves spending a few thousand on concerts a year.

thedudeabides · Mar 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
But please don't justify gear spend with music.

Simply not a universal truth even though you seem to think so.

But then again, we've had this discussion before.

Don Hills · Mar 3, 2016

Rodney Gold said:
... Heated massage seats dont do much to performance ...

Personally, I perform much better after a good hot massage.

FrantzM · Mar 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
People don't spend money on gear to get emotional highs through music. They do it because they are a bunch of addicted junkies. All of us are. We have a weird hobby let's face it. Some buy for sound, some buy for no more reason than satisfying a box swapping itch, some buy because it's a bargain, some because it has a next door service. And a mix of reasons. On certain components they get onto a bandwagon and keep upgrading to next DSD number or whatever that component does (Arc 5, 5Se, 6, 7, 8, 9).

But please don't justify gear spend with music. I have a different hobby for music. Involves spending a few thousand on concerts a year.

COncerts do not come often in one of my neck of the wood... Quality concerts would come about once every other year and I am being generous... And come to think of it .. The logistics of going to concerts for all the music I like or love is unworkable ... and let's face it .. Recorded music is its own art form , quite different from concert-going ...
Else I agree with you

Gregadd · Mar 9, 2016

We then can surmise that an effective product or valid theory can be corrupted by incompetent execection or the profit motive. Both solid state and digital often suffer from these afflictions.

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