What is the correlation b/w measurements and good sound?

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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In my subjective experience, I have found that brands that market themselves using "great engineering" to differentiate themselves from their competitors have sounded awful to me. dCS, Magico q series, Sanders amps, Bryston amps, etc., all claim to be designed by measurements, but have been very harassing to my ears and / or not emotionally satisfying. This is not just like getting a one time bad serving of coq au vin; I have never enjoyed these after many listening attempts. (Sanders speakers, YG, with its thicker bass, and TAD speakers when used with warmer amplifiers are the only exceptions I can think of.)

At this point I will leave my subjective impressions behind and look to learn how you guys judge sound quality based on measurements.
 

RayDunzl

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Jun 26, 2014
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... how you guys judge sound quality based on measurements.

In my case, if a measurement offends my eye, I fix it, and then listen (judgement) to see if I like the change better or not.

If not, try to figure out why.

---

This was December 24, I have a little more treble rolloff now. It's not perfect, but it's very musically satisfying, to me, and no complaints have been registered by third parties.



2015-12-24_2310.png


The dips in the response are the room length at 50Hz (listening position in the null) and dipole to the wall behind the speakers 200-500Hz. (I think).


---

Here's an unsmoothed (but DSP'd) response at the listening position - really shows the 50Hz hole. From Jan 21, has a little more of the current HF rolloff, but not adding the bass boost at that time.


2016-01-21_1650.png


Impulse Response from Jan 17...


2016-01-20_0211.png


---

I think the measurements look pretty good, frequency response, phase response especially above 200Hz, and the impulse response is virtually the same as what would be exiting an uncorrected preamp...

So, I liked what I had, but could recognise some problems in the sound.

I bought a mic and took some measurements.

I figured out what I could get to make changes and manually made filters.

I decided to try an automated filter generator, and was pleased with the results (above) of that approach.
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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In my subjective experience, I have found that brands that market themselves using "great engineering" to differentiate themselves from their competitors have sounded awful to me. dCS, Magico q series, Sanders amps, Bryston amps, etc., all claim to be designed by measurements, but have been very harassing to my ears and / or not emotionally satisfying. This is not just like getting a one time bad serving of coq au vin; I have never enjoyed these after many listening attempts. (Sanders speakers, YG, with its thicker bass, and TAD speakers when used with warmer amplifiers are the only exceptions I can think of.)

At this point I will leave my subjective impressions behind and look to learn how you guys judge sound quality based on measurements.

I don't try to judge sound quality by eye, but my subjective experience, for many years, has been the opposite of yours. More often than not, I prefer the sound of equipment that measures well over "thicker bass" and "warmer amplifiers." This goes all the way back to when I was 19 or 20 and traded the Altec Valencias and Kenwood integrated amp for a pair of large Advents and a Harmon Kardon. It continued to the adoption of digital and then ripping all my discs to a server. To my ears, every step has been an improvement. To others it would be the march to sterility. Different strokes.

Tim
 

RayDunzl

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Jun 26, 2014
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My Audio Buddy has a pair of CLS, driven by Parasound, with Rythmik F12G subwoofers.



He has an SPL meter and a 30 band digital EQ. I need to get over there and see what a sweep looks like. Sounds good, though!
 

Dynamix

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Feb 24, 2016
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Uhm, what's with the planar speakers? What point are you trying to make?

I've never heard a planar I could live with. Sure, they work fork some stuff, but on other stuff they fall completely apart.
 

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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REVSALON2-2.jpg revel freq resp.jpg I hpe I natched those correctly.
 

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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My Audio Buddy has a pair of CLS, driven by Parasound, with Rythmik F12G subwoofers.



He has an SPL meter and a 30 band digital EQ. I need to get over there and see what a sweep looks like. Sounds good, though!

Nice setup. Are the Parsound amps the one designed by John Curl?
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Uhm, what's with the planar speakers? What point are you trying to make?

I've never heard a planar I could live with. Sure, they work fork some stuff, but on other stuff they fall completely apart.
That is the poinnt.What is yoour correlation of sound vs measurements? Planar dipoles don't usually measure well ,but sound fantastic.
 

Dynamix

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Feb 24, 2016
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That is the poinnt.What is yoour correlation of sound vs measurements? Planar dipoles don't usually measure well ,but sound fantastic.

I don't agree that planars sound "fantastic". That's my point.
 

Jim Smith

Industry Expert
Dec 14, 2012
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IME, resorting to measurements before fully working with the system organically (using what you have) can often lead to a compromise in sound.

All too often, the measured response is selected before trying to achieve the very best Dynamics, Presence & Tone without eq.

I have employed eq in a few instances, but only after all efforts were exhausted otherwise.

Sometimes, the flattest response can yield a flat feeling about the music.

This has been proven countless times, but documented by reviewers at the 2003 Stereophile Show in SF.
 
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Dynamix

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Feb 24, 2016
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Also; when it comes to speakers, a simple on-axis frequency response measurement says pretty much nothing at all. There's much more to a speaker than FR. And yes, it can all be measured.

We can send probes across the galaxy with pin point accuracy, so measuring speakers is not really that complicated.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I don't agree that planars sound "fantastic". That's my point.
In general, do you find measurements correlate with what you hear?
 

RayDunzl

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Jun 26, 2014
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Also; when it comes to speakers, a simple on-axis frequency response measurement says pretty much nothing at all. There's much more to a speaker than FR. And yes, it can all be measured.

We can send probes across the galaxy with pin point accuracy, so measuring speakers is not really that complicated.


We can send them across the Solar System with pinpoint accuracy (provided a few mid-course corrections).
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,517
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Also; when it comes to speakers, a simple on-axis frequency response measurement says pretty much nothing at all. There's much more to a speaker than FR. And yes, it can all be measured.

We can send probes across the galaxy with pin point accuracy, so measuring speakers is not really that complicated.
Getting the results through the marketing department is a different matter.
 

RayDunzl

New Member
Jun 26, 2014
289
2
0
Tampa
IME, resorting to measurements before fully working with the system organically (using what you have) can often lead to a compromise in sound.

All too often, the measured response is selected before trying to achieve the very best Dynamics, Presence & Tone without eq.

I have employed eq in a few instances, but only after all efforts were exhausted otherwise.

Sometimes, the flattest response can yield a flat feeling about the music.

This has been proven countless times, but documented by reviewers at the 2003 Stereophile Show in SF.

My buddy (with the CLS) has your book.

I read through it myself, if I remember correctly.
 
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BE718

New Member
Sep 30, 2015
218
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In my subjective experience, I have found that brands that market themselves using "great engineering" to differentiate themselves from their competitors have sounded awful to me. dCS, Magico q series, Sanders amps, Bryston amps, etc., all claim to be designed by measurements, but have been very harassing to my ears and / or not emotionally satisfying. This is not just like getting a one time bad serving of coq au vin; I have never enjoyed these after many listening attempts. (Sanders speakers, YG, with its thicker bass, and TAD speakers when used with warmer amplifiers are the only exceptions I can think of.)

At this point I will leave my subjective impressions behind and look to learn how you guys judge sound quality based on measurements.

My experience has been quite the opposite.

Regarding speakers you need to define what is a "good" measurement. Flat in room response is not good for various reasons, but once you know what curve to achieve measurements will get you there.

Thing is some subjectively prefer the sound of certain aberrations and distortions.
 

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