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Thread: Non-Conformist Speaker Bias?

  1. #11
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Michael yes very fun to listen to, extremely dynamic with amazing bass punch. Narrow listening window but when you are in it they are pretty amazing. If you get a chance at a show to listen Greg is a super nice guy. Some of the best veneer work I have ever seen.
    "Narrow Listening" windows is not something you can associate with the JBL , Geddes and especially Dantley designs .. BTW Tom Danley used to post here... His posts were gold. I would like to see him posting again.
    Frantz
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    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  2. #12
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! nc42acc's Avatar
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    Burmeister Audio Diva
    Bang & Olufsen Beolab 90
    MBL

    All non conformist, cannot say I have ever read an MBL review.
    Last edited by nc42acc; 02-28-2016 at 07:36 AM.
    Marty

  3. #13
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Dallas

    Your thread had me taking another look at Danley Sound... I will admit having heard only the Synergy SH50, in a all tube system. I liked the sound but then my prejudices were at full tilt: Those were horns and P.A horns at that! No self-respecting audiophile would want to care much about the first few minutes of seduction! . The owner was a DIY-type person with a crowded (very), very unorthodox listening room. The sound was superb and surprisingly good. The sound would be be soft 2-way mini-monitor-like one second and explode into ridiculous high fortissimi later with a 30 watts tube old-school amp... He used DIY sub too they could have been Danley design.
    On this Danley has a sub design called Tappered Horn. I don't know if it is patented or not. I know it is available in DIY and one of these is the DTS10. For those who have heard them on of the best sub around at any price. It is less than $3K IIRC. Goes down easily to 18 HZ at -3Db and can take up 1000 watts can dish out up 126 dB of 20 Hz thunder ... Ugly as hell , of course but a sub I would like to hear... err feel

    Many will scoff at those numbers and shout:"Home Theater" but not High End Audio!! When having to work in a home environment, such performance translate into extremely low distortion.. 120 dB SPL is not needed but it means that at 90 dB or even 100 dB the sub and amps are idling. THD of less than 1% at high SPL, very difficult in the bass are then possible.. The same applies for their full range horns, the SH50 for example has a sensitivity of 106 dB/w/m at 2.83 V !!! SET people would rejoice.. They are not pretty but I believe could be be easily beautified by the right surgeon..err.. cabinet-maker .. And the price of admission is lower than what we pay routinely for Power Cords. They deserve investigation IMHO. Coupled with modern day DSP driven Room correction ...

    On that I am reminded of Steve Williams ebullient posts on DDK system based on the very old no-longer made Siemens Professional Cinema Horn speakers. I haven't heard this system, yet, but I believe now that Steve's enthusiasm was warranted. I did object to his use of the term "Natural" then but I think I get his point now having recently heard an Altec Lansing's Voice Of The Theater-based system very recently. I understand his point now. There is something very beguiling that goes into horn-based speakers and his use of the term "Natural" is similar to my failure to convey my impression with the word : "Realism" .
    I also understand more than e ver Bonzo 75 enthusiasm about horn speakers too. I will try to listen to as many unconventional speakers as possible mostly horns and wve-guide based and report if I can. I do believe however there is something interesting that has been going on in the world of non-conventional speaker designs for years.. We audiophiles bent on the High-End, High price model are only beginning to realize this.
    Sorry DJ if I am hijacking your thread
    Frantz
    __________________________________

    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  4. #14
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    I'm enjoying your freestylin' here. Keep it going if you wish.

    One thing I've found dynamic box speakers simply can't do is wide dynamic swings without hearing power compression. I describe this phenomenon as the speaker's sound "loud." That might sound ridiculous because the music should sound loud if it IS loud. But some speakers can play loud without sounding "loud." Thats a good thing of course. Whenever I go to the symphony, we sit on the floor about 15 rows back. Real live music is in fact very loud. If one wants realism, he better have a speaker which easily do the low distortion high SPL thing without sounding "loud." The usual efficiency dynamic speakers which are sold in the magazines just don't do that. IMO, that's not musical realism.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post
    Dallas

    Your thread had me taking another look at Danley Sound... I will admit having heard only the Synergy SH50, in a all tube system. I liked the sound but then my prejudices were at full tilt: Those were horns and P.A horns at that! No self-respecting audiophile would want to care much about the first few minutes of seduction! . The owner was a DIY-type person with a crowded (very), very unorthodox listening room. The sound was superb and surprisingly good. The sound would be be soft 2-way mini-monitor-like one second and explode into ridiculous high fortissimi later with a 30 watts tube old-school amp... He used DIY sub too they could have been Danley design.
    On this Danley has a sub design called Tappered Horn. I don't know if it is patented or not. I know it is available in DIY and one of these is the DTS10. For those who have heard them on of the best sub around at any price. It is less than $3K IIRC. Goes down easily to 18 HZ at -3Db and can take up 1000 watts can dish out up 126 dB of 20 Hz thunder ... Ugly as hell , of course but a sub I would like to hear... err feel

    Many will scoff at those numbers and shout:"Home Theater" but not High End Audio!! When having to work in a home environment, such performance translate into extremely low distortion.. 120 dB SPL is not needed but it means that at 90 dB or even 100 dB the sub and amps are idling. THD of less than 1% at high SPL, very difficult in the bass are then possible.. The same applies for their full range horns, the SH50 for example has a sensitivity of 106 dB/w/m at 2.83 V !!! SET people would rejoice.. They are not pretty but I believe could be be easily beautified by the right surgeon..err.. cabinet-maker .. And the price of admission is lower than what we pay routinely for Power Cords. They deserve investigation IMHO. Coupled with modern day DSP driven Room correction ...

    On that I am reminded of Steve Williams ebullient posts on DDK system based on the very old no-longer made Siemens Professional Cinema Horn speakers. I haven't heard this system, yet, but I believe now that Steve's enthusiasm was warranted. I did object to his use of the term "Natural" then but I think I get his point now having recently heard an Altec Lansing's Voice Of The Theater-based system very recently. I understand his point now. There is something very beguiling that goes into horn-based speakers and his use of the term "Natural" is similar to my failure to convey my impression with the word : "Realism" .
    I also understand more than e ver Bonzo 75 enthusiasm about horn speakers too. I will try to listen to as many unconventional speakers as possible mostly horns and wve-guide based and report if I can. I do believe however there is something interesting that has been going on in the world of non-conventional speaker designs for years.. We audiophiles bent on the High-End, High price model are only beginning to realize this.
    Sorry DJ if I am hijacking your thread
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  5. #15
    [WBF Founding Member] Moderator RBFC's Avatar
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    I've not yet heard a speaker that could startle me as thoroughly as the full-range Apogees I once owned. When Mickey Hart knocked over the "Beast" drum kit on Reference Recordings' Dafos, I thought my house would collapse. I'm sure that experience could be bettered by a number of speakers I've yet to hear...

    So, Michael, do you now have to wear a sweater to listen in your room ?

    Lee
    Lee Aldridge

    I post my own opinions except when posting as a moderator in green.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
    I've not yet heard a speaker that could startle me as thoroughly as the full-range Apogees I once owned. When Mickey Hart knocked over the "Beast" drum kit on Reference Recordings' Dafos, I thought my house would collapse. I'm sure that experience could be bettered by a number of speakers I've yet to hear...

    So, Michael, do you now have to wear a sweater to listen in your room ?

    Lee
    Full range is one of my favprite speakers but while it does some things the best I have ever heard, on other things it sounds unbalanced - magical on some some, imperfect on others. And Divas and Duetta Sigs don't have that full range awesomeness but are more balanced

  7. #17
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
    I've not yet heard a speaker that could startle me as thoroughly as the full-range Apogees I once owned. When Mickey Hart knocked over the "Beast" drum kit on Reference Recordings' Dafos, I thought my house would collapse. I'm sure that experience could be bettered by a number of speakers I've yet to hear...

    So, Michael, do you now have to wear a sweater to listen in your room ?

    Lee
    I don't miss the Krell 900e's heat. That's for sure. I can listen in comfort for a lot longer with my present setup.
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  8. #18
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Hi

    Tom Danley posted on the WBF a graph of the Instantaneous SPL produced by a Key jingle. It showed that there were peaks above 110 dB while the average SPL could be around 80 dB! at 1 meter IIRC! Not the average SPL as measured by an SPL meter but rather a look at the graph from an Oscilloscope to which a microphone is connected. I don't remember the particular but someone with better search skills than I, could go through the forum an unearth this gem of a post. ( I am really asking for someone to dig this one out .. please, the author is Tom Danley ) ... In his own Home Audio system he uses a 106 dB/w/m 2.83 volt speaker, yes a 106 dB sesnsitivity speaker with 1200 W/ch!
    To get back to what Dallas just posted. Horn simply play louder without giving the impression of strain. Real music is loud. I do not think that one should play that kind of loud in their home but the need to go from low SPL to high in a clear and linear fashion is part of realistic or to placate some, "natural" reproduction. One thing that keep me from entirely endorsing low sensitivity speakers is that they don't seem to ever been able to "jump" there.. They simply "go" there. Horns jumps from low top LOUD and in between almost instantaneously. Oh! I believe this is measurable but few audiophiles give this any notice. Some dynamic speakers do that rather well, I have heard good things about Vivid on this subject. Strangely I did find the Magico Q7 to be able to have that jump although being a moderate to low sensitivity speakers... The Wilson X-2 has it too not as much as horns but they do their things quite well on this regard... The only dynamic speakers I have heard to do that as well as horn from my recollection was the Goldmund Apologue, the one with 99 dB of efficiency, this speaker was (is?) better than many would suspect. I am talking about made in the late 1990s I have not heard the current "Anniversary" version..which IIRC cost half million Euros.
    What dynamic cannot do is directivity control. Horns and waveguides seem to be the only ways to achieve constant or at least Controlled Directivity in a broad range of frequencies. In most non-horn dynamic speakers the different drivers have also different directivity patterns and we are too often reminded that we are listening to speakers because of that. Headphones don't have those (nor room -induced) problems but since they place the music inside our heads , it is most un-natural (that notion again ) ... and the lack of "body" , you hear bass but don't "feel" any bass require a certain training of the brain and this affects the suspension of disbelief.
    Just for thoughts... It is quite interesting that the very top of the line Magico is a horn-based speaker. I would like to hear this beast.
    Frantz
    __________________________________

    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  9. #19
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    I heard the Magico Ultimate at a hifi show only. Was not impressed at all, especially given the Western Electrics were a few doors away. Pietro on this forum whom I visited has the Goldmund Apologue as his second speaker and Yamamura horns as his first.

  10. #20
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    One of the best sounding home theaters I have heard used DIY speakers with SEOS constant directivity waveguides. I think someone should offer coverage or listening reports of some of this stuff coming out of people's garages. I like what they do at Inner Fidelity (same company that owns Stereophile ), measuring and doing write ups on home made headphone amps and headphones. But their editor (Tyll) is a cool as hell non-pretentious dude so that might be why...

    Sometimes the fringe is more easily explored when commercial constraints aren't involved.

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