New forum created for subjectivist members

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spazmatron

Banned
Dec 4, 2015
190
0
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Somerset, uk
the forum is and should be a reflection of the hobby, that's largely subjective! (is it not?). what cracks me up is the fundamentalist objectivists come into a thread full of subjective sentiment but dont produce measurements?? they just shut down people's right to express their subjective experiences.

the forum is one big subjective area with a small and very poorly attended measurement area. having a joke, a bit of fun is ok imo so is disagreeing with others but this trend certain members have of completely shutting down others is wrong.. leaving no room for conversation, that's rude. also the trend to be false and just kiss arse is equally unrewarding and unhelpful imo.

there are a few too many ultras on both sides of the fence, guys who think spending $200000 on hifi means they are the ultimate audiophile and cannot be opposed and equally the guys who 'think' they know better because the can use a scope and know what crocodile clips are.

really just a bit of common sense with the running of the site (at the moment that's impossible i know) would work wonders, not some subjectivist 'we are the ultimate audiophiles' old boys club mentality and equally not 'we are the objectivist truth bringers all hail the truth and be known how foolish you all have been spending you money'.

the above is the status quo since i have been here. two camps, equally unbalanced and elitist in their own way.

you need to moderate, ill feeling and nasty posts.. aggressive posts, really look at the intent rather than getting preoccupied by naughty words or a bit of fun. guys who follow each other around endlessly arguing and bitching between themselves, just have a look in 'placebo effects in the extreme' and the ' entreq' threads. those guys should go on a date and rent a room.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
406
405
This is a great example of quantity over quality posts. What you see here is quantity. 4 pages of useless fluff.

Great. Now in addition to remaining on topic, we need to consider the quality of the posts. Anything else the multiple 'bosses' desire?
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
983
11
18
Cape Town South Africa
Another forum...?
sheesh.. as if this site doesn't have enough of them...
how about just keeping the hard core objectivists in their own sandpit... and stop them provoking subjectivists within it.
 

jvrestore

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2013
25
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51
I do more reading here than posting, but those of you who know me from other sites know that I am a straight shooter. That said, I have to say it has been my observation of late that it's become obvious the "Site Founder And Administrator" doesn't know what's best, which is a real shame as this forum used to be held in high regard by many.
 

spazmatron

Banned
Dec 4, 2015
190
0
0
Somerset, uk
This is a great example of quantity over quality posts. What you see here is quantity. 4 pages of useless fluff.

Quality posts will attract industry insiders, industry professionals, manufacturers, technical experts and the like.

While I will admit this is not a quality post, the point should resonate to those who actually care about this forum, its goals and the members we would *hope* to attract.

Tom

with respect Tom its a thread like so many these days that are trying to interpret and solve a problem, the responsibility (and by your own admittance the cause) of which does not fall on the membership but rather the split and dysfunctional management. you guys get your house in order and the rest will follow. ( i know its not your fault but its your responsibility).

why dont you start with the quality post's and lead by example tom (you're fond of that philosophy). that sounds flippant but its not meant to, given the state of your team your only power is to post audio related posts that inspire us to follow you. now if you, Lee and steve did this then you would take over the momentum of the forum and hopefully stop all this crap(not your crap or crap of your making). also like to state its my view Lee has conducted himself in a exemplary manner, a true example.
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
983
11
18
Cape Town South Africa
I do more reading here than posting, but those of you who know me from other sites know that I am a straight shooter. That said, I have to say it has been my observation of late that it's become obvious the "Site Founder And Administrator" doesn't know what's best, which is a real shame as this forum used to be held in high regard by many.

I agree
Split the site and hive off the spoilers
 

Don Hills

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2013
366
1
323
Wellington, New Zealand
I agree
Split the site and hive off the spoilers

Yep. The sooner they can't troll in the measurement based forum the better...
There is one board I follow which has both a measurement based area and a measurement free area, the rest being unrestricted. It seems to work.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
I am mostly with Spazmatron on this. You participate because you are interested... negatively or positively. And that is the beauty of fora that has lately escaped many: Some of your views will be challenged; an online forum is above all a discussion virtual area not an echo chamber nor a vanity mirror. I have here realized how much emotion is invested in those gears, in those beliefs. thus challenges are seen as "attacks"... On one side everyone and their dogs know that "congrats" threads die early... On the other many cannot accept a challenge to their beliefs yet they are attracted to the very threads that do exactly that... Earthlings are fascinating :)
It is also interesting how much vested we are in this site. I know I am. it is the site I frequent with any consistency and I want it to continue to be. I think that the owners must have a good look and find ways to co-exist. They don't have to share each other views, they never did . Simply co-exist, there is much more at stake than their own personal beliefs or leanings.

P.S. I haven't read the entire TOS for this so called: subjectivits forum but its many constraints are not conclusive to serious discussions or debates.
 

spazmatron

Banned
Dec 4, 2015
190
0
0
Somerset, uk
yes Frantz i agree with you too (mostly lol). if you split the debate you weaken the validity of both the debate and the outcome. the site is a subjective forum! with a small measurement area. so why make a subjective area inside the subjective area??!! russian dolls anyone?!

just sort your house out and stop the personal attacks and the dogmatic mantra based posts that ruin the spirit of WBF. the tit for tat childish nonsense that goes on, the ' you ruin my area so now i am going into the measurement area to ruin yours' nonsense. (if you pop over to the measurement area now one such post has just popped up from a serial offender).


dont go chasing guys who are having a bit of fun and offering some perspective. worth remembering the spread of a more light hearted sentiment around here would negate a lot of the bickering and upset. its guys taking themselves far far far to seriously that is the foundation for them both taking offence and perpetrating offence.

for members who cant cope with guys who disagree or just have a need to be reassured continually i dont think the internet is a great place for the fragile no matter how tough the moderation no one wants a place were every one must act like perpetually congratulating automatons... do they?

as for the TOS, barber shop rules work, that's how i moderate myself. that's a men only area with a dynamic much like here.. though many would be forgiven for thinking this is more of a hair and beauty salon.
 
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the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,839
940
with respect Tom its a thread like so many these days that are trying to interpret and solve a problem, the responsibility (and by your own admittance the cause) of which does not fall on the membership but rather the split and dysfunctional management. you guys get your house in order and the rest will follow. ( i know its not your fault but its your responsibility).

why dont you start with the quality post's and lead by example tom (you're fond of that philosophy). that sounds flippant but its not meant to, given the state of your team your only power is to post audio related posts that inspire us to follow you. now if you, Lee and steve did this then you would take over the momentum of the forum and hopefully stop all this crap(not your crap or crap of your making). also like to state its my view Lee has conducted himself in a exemplary manner, a true example.
Spaz,
I understand where you are coming from but I believe that we as members also have to own our behaviour here. We can't just blame the guys in the middle or just throw it all at the ones at the top imo. I would imagine that the intransigence and ongoing conflict has made it virtually impossible for Tom and Lee to be able to do their roles with the kind of grace that I'm sure is their true nature. They are ham strung by the limited power of their positions and I'm guessing are working largely with their hands pretty much tied. I take my hat off to both for their commitment in this utterly crazy and impossible situation. If I was doing this as a volunteer I'd being asking myself if this was really what I was doing it for.

I could only guess that letting things play out is even more frustrating for them as they have been on the front line and have been living this more intensely for much longer than us. How tiring all this stuff would be.

As a middle path kinda guy I find it much easier to understand Steve's position and also have always valued his approach and aims but understand that both site owners would surely be worn out by this and angry at what all their efforts have come to and the deeply distressed state of their legacy.

But at any point we as members can choose to set our own standards of our posts and certainly shouldn't ultimately expect anyone else to carry the can when we actively choose to write garbage or seek to trash the site.
 

spazmatron

Banned
Dec 4, 2015
190
0
0
Somerset, uk
Spaz,
I understand where you are coming from but I believe that we as members also have to own our behaviour here. We can't just blame the guys in the middle or just throw it all at the ones at the top imo. I would imagine that the intransigence and ongoing conflict has made it virtually impossible for Tom and Lee to be able to do their roles with the kind of grace that I'm sure is their true nature. They are ham strung by the limited power of their positions and I'm guessing are working largely with their hands pretty much tied. I take my hat off to both for their commitment in this utterly crazy and impossible situation. If I was doing this as a volunteer I'd being asking myself if this was really what I was doing it for.

I could only guess that letting things play out is even more frustrating for them as they have been on the front line and have been living this more intensely for much longer than us. How tiring all this stuff would be.

As a middle path kinda guy I find it much easier to understand Steve's position and also have always valued his approach and aims but understand that both site owners would surely be worn out by this and angry at what all their efforts have come to and the deeply distressed state of their legacy.

But at any point we as members can choose to set our own standards of our posts and certainly shouldn't ultimately expect anyone else to carry the can when we actively choose to write garbage or seek to trash the site.

yes i agree, i have posted these sentiments too. but by Toms reckoning all was rosey until a split in the management dynamic. hence the above.

i own every thing i post, am happy to be questioned publicly and privately on all and everything.

but Tao, you can only control what you can control. you are a very sensible chap i have never read a word from you that i dont either agree with or find reasonable. your one of my prefered guys TBH but as a collective we must be nurtured by management. we are all fragmented individuals with totally different backgrounds and personalities. we are the raw ingredients but management control the stove. yes lets be the best carrots and chicken breasts we can but that dont stop overcooking or undercooking;)

ironically the status quo we now have tao is because of the reliance on members to moderate themselves, if the world was full of tao that might work but it ain't. who knows maybe it will sort its self out but as Tom eluded to they want experts and industry leaders here.. that ain't going to happen with things the way they are. i like this place, i think its good but we all need to move forward with a shared vision, management and the members. i like Toms vision for WBF for the most part. i think amir and Tom and steve want the forum to have a relevance beyond just some guys chatting about amps and speakers. at the moment we are far away from this, its still a fun place. i like loads of the guys here, nice to meet like minded guys who like music and audio but for Tom( amir, lee and steve i think also) there is a ambition to be more than that. thats got lost imo. they need to get on the same song sheet and reinstate this once shared vision as its great.
 
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FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Is it audio only, will there be room for my thoughts on chocolate biscuits?
Keith

Huh Yea! In the WBF, there is place for what's Best in anything. Those were the premises... Now you may be asked to bring the weight, Chocolateness and sugar content of your biscuits and be subjected to a blind test (taste?:) ) involving a mixture of Mars chocolate bars and microwavable Bisquik in some parts of the forum. Or declare it tastes better when you sit on a leather sofa and not so when you are on a plastic chair without fear of challenge in the subjectivist only forum :D..

Seriously though, we must begin to notice the irony of splitting the forum ... Witness the posts on this subject.. Which is in fact what some have been asking for: a place where subjectivist (or objectivist) views are not challenged or even challenge-able
 

Billy Shears

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2015
255
1
150
Hey Amir,

Why don't you read up on trolling again. I provided ample definitions and examples. You are encouraging trolling under the guise of challenging member assertions and claims about audio. If you are not interested in a particular subject or just feel like challenging the idea for the hell of it just to incite unrest for the op, you are trolling. I have never seen an Administrator Troll on the web before. You should congratulate yourself for breaking new ground.

Even though I fully agree with this, I think its great you created the new forum. I hope we can keep things a little more mannered with the measurements and listeners forum.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
Good lord, this is becoming tiring. This whole site is a subjectivists' forum. The measurements-based sub was an attempt at allowing people who respect data to have a place to view and discuss that data without offending the subjectivists and their spokesmen. It didn't work, because the subjectivists came in droves to complain about the data, the forum, the presentation, Amir...and on that, on attacking Amir, I can't overstate how sick I am of the the bullshit people are throwing at him. The overwhelming majority of what he has presented is simply data. He has never presented it as indisputable fact, just as data for consideration and discussion. But it's data that makes some people wonder, if only for a fleeting moment of clarity, if they are being fools, so those whose egos are way out in front of their judgement have combed through his posts, looking for any lapse of bland neutrality, any expression of humor or personality, so they could be offended by it and call him a troll. I suppose it comforting to find something to be offended by in data-based position that challenges your beliefs, but it's complete unadulterated BS. Now they're offended because in the title of this new forum, he has used he word "challenged." Really, what other word would you use? This is exactly what happens. Data is presented that challenges the beliefs of the very vocal leadership of the subjectivist majority and their heads begin spinning. Why? Because when your personal religion is believing the world is flat and someone shows you a picture of the blue sphere, there are two basic ways to go: Come up with a picture of a disc floating in space or take offense at having your beliefs questioned.

And that is exactly what's going on here: The hard-core subjectivists' beliefs are being questioned with something that they don't have to support them: data. Hey, I'm sorry you don't have facts on your side of the argument, that you have to imagine that the immeasurable, the unverifiable, will one day be revealed and show everyone that you were right all along. But in the meantime, you can't let a few of us have a conversation without following us into a sub-forum designed for that conversation? That's trolling.

I've deliberately avoided using any names here to stay within TOS, but now I'm going to break it: Steve, you should be ashamed of yourself. The ethnic connection may have been inadvertent. I'll give you that benefit of the doubt. But the dictator dig was clearly deliberate, who you were aiming it at is lost on no one, and it is a worse violation of TOS, and common courtesy, than anything I've ever seen in one of Amir's posts. It was funny, though.

Screw this crap. I've got guitars to play...

Tim
 

LarsS

New Member
Nov 11, 2014
69
0
0
Stockholm
I wish I could get this much attention on my newly created thread on "Symmetrical Crossovers ..." ;)

/Best
Lars
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
I wish I could get this much attention on my newly created thread on "Symmetrical Crossovers ..." ;)

/Best
Lars

I'll go look at that, Lars. Not guaranteeing I'll understand it, but I'll look. :) Thanks.

Tim
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
1,000
Reno, NV
It's not so much what amir, Blizzard and others post as it is the sheer number of posts and relentless re-iteration of their opinions and "data" that is objectionable. An effective and reasonable discussion doesn't consist of one (or more) poster(s) posting the same thing over and over and over again in response to disagreement (even though the current U.S. political landscape might suggest otherwise.)
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,517
1,774
1,850
Metro DC
If you want to peddle your pseudo scientific b.s. take it over to Hydrogen Audio. You"ll be preaching to the choir. You will get an amen to all your subjectivist bashing.
Now take a deep breath. Count to ten before hit send.
Do you consider that statement at all
conciliatory?
Amirs' statement , a forum for those who are afraid to be challenged , is equally inflamarory. Sorry it is not a matter of semantics. It is his clearly stated belief. He is now using his power as admin/owner/mod to implement it.
If he does not realize it, that is even more cause for concern.

.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
I'll just add in the interests of disclosure that I'm a fully-fledged subjectivist myself, but not one who's going to object to having my subjective listening impressions challenged. So I'm content to stay on the other threads.

I was about to agree with this, opus112, but then I considered the ways in which a few of my subjective listening impressions have been challenged. To some of those, I do take exception. As my mother is fond of saying, "It's the tone that makes the music." I don't mind being challenged, but I do mind rude attacks.

And then, thinking some more about this new forum where subjectivists can enter and not be subject to challenge: what if someone says "I did not hear that the same way you did." Is that a subjectivist offering a challenge?

As this seems to be a thread where members can express their opinions about this new forum, here is mine: The whole idea of this new forum is a bit flawed, IMHO, and in part for the reasons that have been mentioned up thread. It seems a clever move but something does not quite seem right about it. I can't quite figure out why.
 
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