Tonearm Comparison: SME 3012R and SME V-12

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Yes, I have spoken to Mik a few times by phone and seen photos of his amazing turntable collection. He has a custom designed 20/12 with a 12" SME arm on it, either the V-12 or the 312S. He seems to know a lot about the company but I haven't spoken to him in a while now.

Well between them the general and Mik own/have owned more gear than all together on this forum (possibly a hyperbole, possibly not). You have feedback from both of them on a direct compare. So the only thing now to do is accept it or verify yourself. The general is classical, SET horns, while Mik is Rockport, Jadis/Krell, mainly non classical. So you have perspectives from both schools
 

miniguy

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Dec 18, 2013
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I have heard both on the same table. Both are excellent but different. With the 3012R there is absolutely no tracking error and it is an amazing tracker. I think the V-12 is easier to set up (cartridge alignment) and has a much better (easier to use) VTA adjustment. I personally like the ability to swap cartridges with the 3012R as I have a collection of cartridges and have really been enjoying some of the vintage MM cartridges discuss on Raul's lengthy thread on Audiogon.

In terms of sound, I would say that the 3012R is extremely smooth and warm, while the V-12 has more extension and is more precise. I kept the 3012R. I'm going to post my system once my new rack is installed but here it is:

Transrotor Fat BobS
Ikeda 345
SME 3012R
Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe
Lamm M2.2
Quintessence Stealth

Just to be clear, all pivoted arms have tracking error, more or less depending on the designed in geometry.
 

PeterA

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I have heard both on the same table. Both are excellent but different. With the 3012R there is absolutely no tracking error and it is an amazing tracker. I think the V-12 is easier to set up (cartridge alignment) and has a much better (easier to use) VTA adjustment. I personally like the ability to swap cartridges with the 3012R as I have a collection of cartridges and have really been enjoying some of the vintage MM cartridges discuss on Raul's lengthy thread on Audiogon.

In terms of sound, I would say that the 3012R is extremely smooth and warm, while the V-12 has more extension and is more precise. I kept the 3012R. I'm going to post my system once my new rack is installed but here it is:

Transrotor Fat BobS
Ikeda 345
SME 3012R
Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe
Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe
Lamm M2.2
Quintessence Stealth

Jeffrey, Which cartridges did you use for this comparison and is the Transrotor table suspended? There seems to be some suggestions that one arm is better on a suspended table while the other is better on a non suspended table. Also, do you use the rubber grommets for the arm base mounting screws? These can also affect the sound and may be more or less important if the table is suspended. More precisely, if rumble from an idler or motor noise reaches the arm board, those grommets are designed to suppress those vibrations. But they also make the connection compliant. What is your experience with that? Thanks.
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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How is the 3012 for mono cart's? any issues that anyone has experienced?

Thank you.

I have a Miyajima Zero mounted on an SME 3012R and it sounds wonderful.
 

jeff1225

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Jan 29, 2012
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Jeffrey, Which cartridges did you use for this comparison and is the Transrotor table suspended? There seems to be some suggestions that one arm is better on a suspended table while the other is better on a non suspended table. Also, do you use the rubber grommets for the arm base mounting screws? These can also affect the sound and may be more or less important if the table is suspended. More precisely, if rumble from an idler or motor noise reaches the arm board, those grommets are designed to suppress those vibrations. But they also make the connection compliant. What is your experience with that? Thanks.

The Transotor Fat Bob is not suspended, but that doesnt matter as SME OEM's their arms for them. The suggestion that the SME V-12 doesn't sound good with non-suspended turntables is unfounded with world class tables from Transrotor and Audio Note Kondo using the V-12 on their tables. I used the Air Tight 5000 for all comparisons. Rubber grommets were used as well.
 
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PeterA

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The Transotor Fat Bob is not suspended, but that doesnt matter as SME OEM's their arms for them. The suggestion that the SME V-12 doesn't sound good with non-suspended turntables is unfounded with world class tables from Transrotor and Audio Note Kondo using the V-12 on their tables. I used the Air Tight 5000 for all comparisons. Rubber grommets were used as well.

Jeffrey, I agree with you that the V-12 can sound good on both suspended and non suspended tables. For years, the V-12 was Albert Porter's reference arm on his unsuspended Technics SP10 mk 3. I don't know where this idea came from, but perhaps it is because the arm's release corresponded with the popularity of suspended turntables of the time. It is interesting to note that some mentioned that the new SME arms, in this case, all 9", were too heavy for the Linny Sondek tables and messed with their spring suspensions.

I agree with Bruce B. that the Modlel 30 is certainly no light weight suspended turntable. The SME suspension is very robust and not at all springy. I agree that there are many OEM SME arms sold as integrated solutions on tables of all sorts. Avid is another to add to Transrotor and Kondo. And let's not forget that early TechDAS and Kronos tables were demonstrated with the SME V-12.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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Jeffrey, I agree with you that the V-12 can sound good on both suspended and non suspended tables. For years, the V-12 was Albert Porter's reference arm on his unsuspended Technics SP10 mk 3. I don't know where this idea came from, but perhaps it is because the arm's release corresponded with the popularity of suspended turntables of the time. It is interesting to note that some mentioned that the new SME arms, in this case, all 9", were too heavy for the Linny Sondek tables and messed with their spring suspensions.

I agree with Bruce B. that the Modlel 30 is certainly no light weight suspended turntable. The SME suspension is very robust and not at all springy. I agree that there are many OEM SME arms sold as integrated solutions on tables of all sorts. Avid is another to add to Transrotor and Kondo. And let's not forget that early TechDAS and Kronos tables were demonstrated with the SME V-12.

Hello Peter,

Hope you are well.

The idea originates in practice.

Theory would suggest that an arm, robustly constructed, will perform at its best on any turntable it is fitted to (i.e. static behaviour resulting in an action). Practice, while certainly not invalidating the theory completely, suggests an arm and turntable have a more mercurial relationship than that (i.e. dynamic behaviour resulting in an interaction).

We are dealing with a complex system of a multiplicity of variables resulting in a greater degree of non-linearities. A solution to a problem is likely to introduce problems of its own, especially in complex systems. Theory alone cannot and will never be sufficient for accurately predicting whether those non-linearities will result in an asymmetric swing toward ones’ preferences or away from them. Only practice will.

And even though Albert Porter and Transrotor and Kondo and Avid and TechDas and Kronos (plus any others you care to name) have in the past or do currently use the V-12 as their arm of choice, those appeals to authority are not sufficient to definitively declare a V-12 can be used successfully on all turntables relative to the success other arms, especially given “success” in this context will be measured against the vagaries of individual subjective preferential choice (not to mention the issues associated with OEM manufacturing and marketing).

That’s not to say, as you and jeffrey_t allude to, that the V-12 cannot sound good on a specific “world class” non-suspended turntable (even in as much as we appreciate “world class” will always be a matter of highly subjective opinion). But neither is it the same as saying it will sound good on all non-suspended tables (or for that matter, all suspended turntables as the LP12 is testament to (1)) and that its performance envelope is not best realised on specific decks, of which we must potentially include the 30/2 and 30/12.

I apologise if this all comes across as needless equivocation. I have no interest in modifying anyone’s behaviour toward or away from a particular arm. Perhaps it is true that I am one of the few, if not the only one, who feels uncomfortable suggesting an arm - because of its geometry, mass, engineering or pedigree (i.e. its static behaviour) - will therefore work on all turntables (when subject to dynamic behaviour). That’s not been my personal experience.

Nevertheless, I would also never suggest my experience is anything more of less than that. If users of the V-12 achieve the greatest level of possible performance from that arm on suspended and non-suspended turntables relative to their preferences and biases, who I am to argue - and why would I?

My argument is and continues to be that individual data points and collectivised ones are never enough reason to declare definitively that something must therefore be true. The best we can say is that preference usually manifests collectively, because we as humans often look for others who reinforce our preconceived notions (2).

My best to you,

853guy


(1) This was one of the primary reasons I abandoned the LP12. Arm choice was always variations on a theme. It simply proved too limiting a factor for me, personally, given I also began exploring carts of the low-compliance variety.

(2) Hence the regular occurrence of the logical fallacy of appeals to authority pertaining to pursuits of preferential choice.
 

Ron Resnick

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A very thoughtful, introspective and beautifully-written post, 853guy!
 

PeterA

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Hello Peter,

Hope you are well.

The idea originates in practice.

Theory would suggest that an arm, robustly constructed, will perform at its best on any turntable it is fitted to (i.e. static behaviour resulting in an action). Practice, while certainly not invalidating the theory completely, suggests an arm and turntable have a more mercurial relationship than that (i.e. dynamic behaviour resulting in an interaction).

We are dealing with a complex system of a multiplicity of variables resulting in a greater degree of non-linearities. A solution to a problem is likely to introduce problems of its own, especially in complex systems. Theory alone cannot and will never be sufficient for accurately predicting whether those non-linearities will result in an asymmetric swing toward ones’ preferences or away from them. Only practice will.

And even though Albert Porter and Transrotor and Kondo and Avid and TechDas and Kronos (plus any others you care to name) have in the past or do currently use the V-12 as their arm of choice, those appeals to authority are not sufficient to definitively declare a V-12 can be used successfully on all turntables relative to the success other arms, especially given “success” in this context will be measured against the vagaries of individual subjective preferential choice (not to mention the issues associated with OEM manufacturing and marketing).

That’s not to say, as you and jeffrey_t allude to, that the V-12 cannot sound good on a specific “world class” non-suspended turntable (even in as much as we appreciate “world class” will always be a matter of highly subjective opinion). But neither is it the same as saying it will sound good on all non-suspended tables (or for that matter, all suspended turntables as the LP12 is testament to (1)) and that its performance envelope is not best realised on specific decks, of which we must potentially include the 30/2 and 30/12.

I apologise if this all comes across as needless equivocation. I have no interest in modifying anyone’s behaviour toward or away from a particular arm. Perhaps it is true that I am one of the few, if not the only one, who feels uncomfortable suggesting an arm - because of its geometry, mass, engineering or pedigree (i.e. its static behaviour) - will therefore work on all turntables (when subject to dynamic behaviour). That’s not been my personal experience.

Nevertheless, I would also never suggest my experience is anything more of less than that. If users of the V-12 achieve the greatest level of possible performance from that arm on suspended and non-suspended turntables relative to their preferences and biases, who I am to argue - and why would I?

My argument is and continues to be that individual data points and collectivised ones are never enough reason to declare definitively that something must therefore be true. The best we can say is that preference usually manifests collectively, because we as humans often look for others who reinforce our preconceived notions (2).

My best to you,

853guy


(1) This was one of the primary reasons I abandoned the LP12. Arm choice was always variations on a theme. It simply proved too limiting a factor for me, personally, given I also began exploring carts of the low-compliance variety.

(2) Hence the regular occurrence of the logical fallacy of appeals to authority pertaining to pursuits of preferential choice.

Hello 853guy. Yes, I am well, thank you. I generally agree with what you just wrote. It seems obvious that the arm and turntable interact dynamically and that people will either like or dislike what they hear with a particular combination. And that sometimes it is difficult to predict what a particular combination will sound like. The proof is in the listening as someone said.

I don't know what any of this has to do with "world class" turntables. Who defines such a thing? That is not a term I brought in to the discussion. Nor did I name specific brands to "appeal to authority". I am not trying to prove anything. I simply named brands that seem to use the OEM version of the V or V-12 to suggest that the arms are being successfully used on a variety of tables, not that they will be successful on ALL turntables. Like you, I have no interest in suggesting a particular arm to anyone. With regard to this subject, I am trying to seek advice from others by asking questions. I am not trying to declare anything and no, data points do not collectively make something true.
 

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
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Hello 853guy. Yes, I am well, thank you. I generally agree with what you just wrote. It seems obvious that the arm and turntable interact dynamically and that people will either like or dislike what they hear with a particular combination. And that sometimes it is difficult to predict what a particular combination will sound like. The proof is in the listening as someone said.

Hi Peter,

Good to hear you are well.

I don't know what any of this has to do with "world class" turntables. Who defines such a thing? That is not a term I brought in to the discussion.

“World class” was a term jeffrey_t used above, in post #26. I quoted it in my response to you to highlight the problem of subjective framing for the purpose of robust discussion. I can accept we use terms like “world class” occasionally in discussions like these, and although there is nothing intrinsically wrong with statements of those sorts relative to ones’ perception for the purposes of informal discussion, they do not serve the purpose of robust discussion, and tell me much more about the individual who uses it than it does anything about the component to which they refer.

Nor did I name specific brands to "appeal to authority". I am not trying to prove anything. I simply named brands that seem to use the OEM version of the V or V-12 to suggest that the arms are being successfully used on a variety of tables, not that they will be successful on ALL turntables.

I myself am convinced you are not trying to prove anything. Whenever we use another individual or collection of individuals to suggest their use of X justifies our usage, we are appealing to (a form of) authority. But usage only tells us about the number of people willing to adopt X; it tells us nothing about the inherent quality of X (see the mass adoption of MP3 as a case in point).

Albert Porter is well-known, and the manufacturer’s you listed are certainly also well-regarded. However, the perception of the expertise/status of those individuals is also neither a reason to consider their usage of X to be a robust measure of the inherent quality of X - again it tells me much more about their preferences and biases than it does anything about X.

Suggesting “the arms are being successfully used on a variety of tables” is problematic for me in that “success” as I mention above in the third paragraph of my post is only ever measured against the vagaries of individual subjective preferential choice, and is itself a container for many separate and interrelated criteria, both subjective and objective.

We can definitively say the V-series is being used on a variety of tables - suspended and non-suspended, but unfortunately this tells me nothing about its inherent properties apropos the quality of music replay.

Like you, I have no interest in suggesting a particular arm to anyone. With regard to this subject, I am trying to seek advice from others by asking questions. I am not trying to declare anything and no, data points do not collectively make something true.

I hope my post is received in the manner intended: discussion of the principles and ideas of tonearm evaluation, rather than discussion of you as a person and individual. The latter is most certainly not my intention. I appreciate also that though my points do not perhaps help to give any direct experiential subjective data points in regard to the OP (1), I hope they go a little way to clarifying my own thinking on the problematic nature of the evaluation of any component with regard to robustness of process. The number of people using something, and their expertise/status fail the test of robustness for me (2), and for the reasons I mention above.

I will leave the thread in the interest of potentially hearing more from those who have both and can offer more insight. More from me will not.

Be well, Peter.

853guy


(1) I have heard both the V-series and 3012R, but only in systems of lesser familiarity. Where there is a greater number of variables (unfamiliarity being one), I have less certainty in making observations of any utility value and try to avoid making them. Perhaps, however, if Art Dudley’s comments are to be believed and the 3012 is to be put back into production, we may have more people adopting the arm, and greater chances for each of us to evaluate it in a greater number of contexts relative to other arms. https://www.stereophile.com/content/arts-friday-munich-part-one

(2) Duration of exposure is not the same as expertise. Expertise is not the same as insight. Indeed, often length of exposure and expertise have the effect of leading to myopic and domain-dependent thinking.
 

jeff1225

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Jan 29, 2012
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Hello Peter,

Hope you are well.

The idea originates in practice.

Theory would suggest that an arm, robustly constructed, will perform at its best on any turntable it is fitted to (i.e. static behaviour resulting in an action). Practice, while certainly not invalidating the theory completely, suggests an arm and turntable have a more mercurial relationship than that (i.e. dynamic behaviour resulting in an interaction).

We are dealing with a complex system of a multiplicity of variables resulting in a greater degree of non-linearities. A solution to a problem is likely to introduce problems of its own, especially in complex systems. Theory alone cannot and will never be sufficient for accurately predicting whether those non-linearities will result in an asymmetric swing toward ones’ preferences or away from them. Only practice will.

And even though Albert Porter and Transrotor and Kondo and Avid and TechDas and Kronos (plus any others you care to name) have in the past or do currently use the V-12 as their arm of choice, those appeals to authority are not sufficient to definitively declare a V-12 can be used successfully on all turntables relative to the success other arms, especially given “success” in this context will be measured against the vagaries of individual subjective preferential choice (not to mention the issues associated with OEM manufacturing and marketing).

That’s not to say, as you and jeffrey_t allude to, that the V-12 cannot sound good on a specific “world class” non-suspended turntable (even in as much as we appreciate “world class” will always be a matter of highly subjective opinion). But neither is it the same as saying it will sound good on all non-suspended tables (or for that matter, all suspended turntables as the LP12 is testament to (1)) and that its performance envelope is not best realised on specific decks, of which we must potentially include the 30/2 and 30/12.

I apologise if this all comes across as needless equivocation. I have no interest in modifying anyone’s behaviour toward or away from a particular arm. Perhaps it is true that I am one of the few, if not the only one, who feels uncomfortable suggesting an arm - because of its geometry, mass, engineering or pedigree (i.e. its static behaviour) - will therefore work on all turntables (when subject to dynamic behaviour). That’s not been my personal experience.

Nevertheless, I would also never suggest my experience is anything more of less than that. If users of the V-12 achieve the greatest level of possible performance from that arm on suspended and non-suspended turntables relative to their preferences and biases, who I am to argue - and why would I?

My argument is and continues to be that individual data points and collectivised ones are never enough reason to declare definitively that something must therefore be true. The best we can say is that preference usually manifests collectively, because we as humans often look for others who reinforce our preconceived notions (2).

My best to you,

853guy


(1) This was one of the primary reasons I abandoned the LP12. Arm choice was always variations on a theme. It simply proved too limiting a factor for me, personally, given I also began exploring carts of the low-compliance variety.

(2) Hence the regular occurrence of the logical fallacy of appeals to authority pertaining to pursuits of preferential choice.

I'm amused that you are choking on a word like "world class." When discussing a brand like Kondo, one can describe their designs using multiple superlatives, but anyone who's heard their gear or examined the fit and finish of their products would describe them as "world class." Due to the current state of this niche hobby and the lack of retailers, we MUST rely on multiple data points and assumptions to form conclusions. 4 people in Asia bought the AS-2000 turntable based on DDK's reputation and reviews from audiophiles on this forum alone. One cannot listen to every high mass turntable to determine if the SME V-12 will work, one must make assumptions based on the available data. A significant data point is that many state of the art (don't wish for you to choke on world class) turntable manufacturers demonstrate their products with the SME V-12.

The logic behind the assumption is sound. There are no absolutes.
 

PeterA

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I started this thread more than four years ago wanting to learn more about these two 12" tonearms from the same company. The last post was two years ago, so I figure it is time for an update. I completed an outboard armpod project and purchased an SME 3012R. I have been listening to both arms ever since. I am now in the process of directly comparing them in my system with the same vdH Colibri Grand Cru cartridge in both arms. The only variable, and it might be significant, is the custom stainless steel armpod of my own design and the stock brass armboard of my SME Model 30/12A turntable. The later is suspended as per the table's design, while the armpod is simply a 45 lb block of steel on adjustable footers. Here are some photographs of my room and system for context and of the two arms with the turntable. The two cartridges in the photos are the vdH Grand Cru and the vdH Master Signature. The comparison though, is only with the Grand Cru in both arms.

I made two videos using my iPhone 11, one with each arm. These are the first such videos that I have posted of my system. Using these videos to assess the quality of one's system is fairly controversial, but my purpose is pretty simple. These videos are of the same music using the same cartridge on the two different arms. All cartridge set up parameters are as similar as I could make them within my abilities to set up a cartridge. Loading, gain, VTF, anti-skate, azimuth are the same for both arms. I also used the same protractor. VTA is adjusted for each arm to what I think sounds most natural. I do not remember if the volume level is identical as the two videos were made a few days apart, and I forgot to make note of the setting. You may have to adjust slightly for that. Both arms are using their stock SME phono cables. The cartridge has 174 hours on it.

I do not know if listeners will be able to hear differences between the tonearms from these videos, but if you do and you are interested, please share them on this thread. Describe what you hear as the differences, and indicate your preference and reasoning. I am not suggesting that anyone can learn anything definitive about my system or about either arm from these videos, but it may be a fun exercise, and I am hear to share and learn from others reading this thread. The music may also not be to your liking, but I have been listening to classical and choral music quite a bit lately.

Video A:

Video B:

_DSC8557.jpg

_DSC7952.jpg

_DSC7954.jpg
 

Kingsrule

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Feb 3, 2011
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Well one thing sticks out, IME no 2 cartridges sound the same so everything here is subject to that unknown
 

ack

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I think Video B sounds just plain horrible, preferring A. A - through computer speakers, and obviously very low audio fidelity all throughout - sounds more together. Frankly, I find it funny that high end audiophiles are asked to compare sonics based on MP3 quality or worse. This couldn't be further from a just plain bad audio test.
 
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Al M.

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I think Video B sounds just plain horrible, preferring A. A - through computer speakers, and obviously very low audio fidelity all throughout - sounds more together. Frankly, I find it funny that high end audiophiles are asked to compare sonics based on MP3 quality or worse. This couldn't be further from a just plain bad audio test.

I listened through headphones, and thought the sound was actually very good. Since many around here will know me as a particularly rabid system video hater, people will know that I don't give such praise lightly. Peter clearly has made progress with capturing sound quality compared to earlier unsuccessful attempts (sent around in private).

If you didn't like the sound, I guess you can forget computer speakers, then.

The two videos sound different, certainly, but I'm not sure if I prefer one over the other. Let's see what others think.
 

ack

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I guess you can forget computer speakers, then.

It all starts with the microphone Al, and it moves on to the encoding, then the decoding; the computer speakers are the last in the chain. This test is just plain ________. We may just all go back to the walkman. Really fascinating to have to compare arms [or anything] this way.
 
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Al M.

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It all starts with the microphone Al, and it moves on to the encoding, then the decoding; the computer speakers are the last in the chain. This test is just plain ________

Ack, I agree with your objections in principle, and even the best YouTube video suffers from clear limitations.

Yet listen with headphones, and then we'll talk. I think this comparison is actually quite instructive, insufficient level matching aside (I think video B needs to be listened to just a tad louder).
 

ack

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Ack, I agree with your objections in principle, and even the best YouTube video suffers from clear limitations.

Yet listen with headphones, and then we'll talk. I think this comparison is actually quite instructive, insufficient level matching aside (I think video B needs to be listened to just a tad louder).

I should never complain about audio reviews or show reports again. But you are right, let me put on my random headphones, which happen to best the computer speakers - or do they. Do I need room, or ear, treatments, while I do that? I bet some need ear treatments.
 

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