"The Fall And Rise Of Reginald Perrin," "Fawlty Towers" and "Dad's Army" were classics. The others, though...
It's a wee bit like F.T. in here.
Placebo effects in the extreme
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"The Fall And Rise Of Reginald Perrin," "Fawlty Towers" and "Dad's Army" were classics. The others, though...
It's a wee bit like F.T. in here.
I can't imagine that. The only time that would happen is if we close the forum altogether.
WBF has been a successful forum and continues to this day. Back in 2014 however, we had a downturn. A number of senior members left. All subjectivists. All because of in-fighting. Here is a message sent by one of the subjectivists on the admin team to one of those top subjectivist members:
"I have told you in no uncertain terms that your manner of posting is not only sometimes juvenile but when you don't agree with someone you insult them with your posts. Your recent comment to [member A] about....".That comment is so naive as to not even warrant an answer."
This was followed in your next post to [member A] once again adding an adjective to naive such that you continued to offend him
[member being sanctioned], I have had this conversation with you too many times to comment once again. I strongly encourage you to think about your mannerisms here on WBF and suggest you call me for us to talk. Further violations will result in further administrative action, something that we don't want to do but will be forced to should you continue to behave in such a fashion that offends members and violates the TOS of WBF.
Frankly your response yesterday to me was construed by everyone as bogus that you were interested in what [member A] had to say. IMO you were being an arm chair quarterback fanning the flames of the thread.
Trust me when I tell you [member being sanctioned], these provocative actions that you continue to use will stop immediately . We value your presence here at WBF. In fact I would go further and tell you that your knowledge in the hobby is without equal and you are a highly intelligent person with whom I even agree with your politics BUT when you continue to rear your ugly head and show your other side everything else goes out the window. If you disagree so be it but I suggest that if you want further information you and I need to talk about this by phone
I trust that I have made myself loud and clear and that you will re read every one of your posts before you hit the reply button because I will NOT overlook these issues with you ever again."
I linked earlier to Peter's thread. He blew up because another subjectivists went to a show and dared to share his opinion here. Peter was upset that someone would say anything negative about a product after listening for a few minutes at a show. No objectivist involved.
If you think it will be peaches and cream in a subjectivists only forum, think again. I have members on my admin team that want to compete with parking police on how many tickets they want to hand out to you all. Whip them into shape they say. Member ddk/david left the forum because he did not want to be treated this way.
So no, your proposal has no merit. No way can you get a bunch of hormone driven males in a place and have them not fight. Certainly not a group of people who want to shout from mountaintop how good their system is over someone else's. If they are not angry with objectivists, they are angry at each other.
Required Viewing:
The Mind and the Matter - Twilight Zone, Rod Serling era
"Using the power of mind over matter, Archibald Beechcroft remakes the world to his own specifications."
He eventually tries making everyone just like him.
It didn't work out.
The Mind and the Matter - Twilight Zone, Rod Serling era
"Using the power of mind over matter, Archibald Beechcroft remakes the world to his own specifications."
He eventually tries making everyone just like him.
It didn't work out.
There is not a single day that goes by that I don't think about David (ddk). ...I also think about Mike (Blizz the Wizz); I can't believe how mistreated he was.
I think of Roger...the open-real-tape guy from Vegas...Roger Dressler...the other one.
Andre is dead...the Frenchman from Montreal, RIP Andre.
I can name hundred good people easily that once were posting some here...now gone.
And where they all gone now...when home is right here...where the heart should be?
We're all good, and the bad is a virus, an infection that simply requires good exercise in the morning, some vitamins A, B, C, D & E. ...That's all, so simple, walk around the block with the cat and the dog every morning @ 5:00 AM ... you'll see...it's a tremendous boost for life's positivite side. On Sundays go visit your grandchildren...because they need your love. You want them to become WBF members when they grow up? ...Me too, so give them love now and every day till they join us. Then we can have some dynamite discussions on audio, movies, music, ...all that jazz with our own grandchildren.
Who am I, who are you? Lol, from the same human race, that's who. And it's not like we're fighting each other here...we live in the same country with the same vegetation...forests, oceans, mountains, lakes, flowers, cats, dogs, moose, elks, bison, bears, mosquitoes, cougars, ...
We just happened to have a turntable or three and spinning few albums for our leisure/pleasure of our retirement days.
Bring back Adam & Eve, and let's start all over with a new apple tree...no snake around or inside that apple. And if an apple tree won't do let's just switch to a plum tree. ...Or a Microsoft tree. :b
You know what I mean...placebo effects in the extreme, that's what.
I think of Roger...the open-real-tape guy from Vegas...Roger Dressler...the other one.
Andre is dead...the Frenchman from Montreal, RIP Andre.
I can name hundred good people easily that once were posting some here...now gone.
And where they all gone now...when home is right here...where the heart should be?
We're all good, and the bad is a virus, an infection that simply requires good exercise in the morning, some vitamins A, B, C, D & E. ...That's all, so simple, walk around the block with the cat and the dog every morning @ 5:00 AM ... you'll see...it's a tremendous boost for life's positivite side. On Sundays go visit your grandchildren...because they need your love. You want them to become WBF members when they grow up? ...Me too, so give them love now and every day till they join us. Then we can have some dynamite discussions on audio, movies, music, ...all that jazz with our own grandchildren.
Who am I, who are you? Lol, from the same human race, that's who. And it's not like we're fighting each other here...we live in the same country with the same vegetation...forests, oceans, mountains, lakes, flowers, cats, dogs, moose, elks, bison, bears, mosquitoes, cougars, ...
We just happened to have a turntable or three and spinning few albums for our leisure/pleasure of our retirement days.
Bring back Adam & Eve, and let's start all over with a new apple tree...no snake around or inside that apple. And if an apple tree won't do let's just switch to a plum tree. ...Or a Microsoft tree. :b
You know what I mean...placebo effects in the extreme, that's what.
How come every time someone says "I trust my ears" you can't get them to participate in a blinded listening session?
Very good point. I am adding it to my quotes from WBF archives, dude, you're in my book now!
I and you could stop here and listen for the defeaning silence as no answers arise. But, I would say that its the definition of an audiophile that many seem to adhere to, the one of the golden ears theme.
In fact, there are really very few golden ears and they are sure not in their late fourties and fifties (and 60's and seventies!) as they are not even hearing 60% of the sounds that are coming out of their stereo systems to start with. I had to break ranks with the word audiophile because of that golden ears thing, and when someone say, eh mate, you don't hear that tizz on the high hat? and if you say no, then you are not an audiophile, and the guy saying that does not have to prove anything (that blinded listening session again) and so he walks away (whether he heard it or thought he heard that tizz) with his chest popped out cause by damn he is special.
So, for me, I just say I like music, and I like gear that provides me the most details that I can hear, and any system that gives me more information from a recording and makes every recording sound different then that system is for me. And yet, if I want some tone controls of my choosing I will plug them in. I every day nearly choose what headphones to listen to depending on my mood. Clarity or a mellowness.
I am at peace with my ears and brain and ear brain interface, and I know that they are just physical things with a wild ass computer program deciding what is "me" at any instant in time, and I did not write the program or can even look at the code. In fact, I don't know if the program is re-writing itself every instant anyway.
But, yep, this is the thread for us who know enough to know that our ears and brain can and do fool us often enough. We just are not afraid to admit it here.
They say the male human ear can't be trusted once over 40. I only have 3 years left before my subjective opinion can no longer hold weight if this is true
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Well I've tried sticking my head in the scholarly articles that support the subjectivist AB/X or other BIAS controlled anti-position but I've only found works that support bias controlled testing. Here's the thing: There isn't an argument you can make that isn't also going work against your sighted evaluations.
If a person sighted can listen to a Generic CAT5/6 cable and then 3 more (all increasing in price) and without equivocation state the improvements are 'readily apparent'. When asked about how they came to that conclusion there is NO response they can give that won't also work for blinded evaluation.
Took notes? You can take notes in blinded evaluation.
Some otherworldly echoic memory? It will just as otherworldly blinded
The difference was 'readily apparent' or 'night and day'? Those differences will just as pronounced blinded.
I can't even give away $2000 for someone, anyone prove to me they can hear the difference in a $12 CAT6 cable vs a $350 cable. I've had the offer posted for years now.
Never trust the Audiophile scared by a blindfold. If they can't trust their ears neither should you.
Well Jinjuku, "every time" isn't correct. I trust my ears, accepted the challenge and then the conditions changed. Then they changed again. Then all of a sudden, the only way the blinded listening session could happen without a shadow of doubt would have been for me to fly a 1/3rd of the way around the world on my dime.
Huh?
I trust my ears. That doesn't mean I need to spend my hard earned audio dollars proving it to other people. Those folks that know my ears also trust my ears. That's good enough for me. If it isn't good enough for some? Oh well, no loss of sleep here.
Tom
IIRC the term "Golden ears "was coined by audiophile detracters to describe those who heard things not reflected in measurements. They are not all old. Those who are old were not always so. I appreciate their experience.
The ear/brain enjoy the position of final arbiter. Whether you like it or not. They are good enough for live. They are good enough for reproduction.
The ear/brain enjoy the position of final arbiter. Whether you like it or not. They are good enough for live. They are good enough for reproduction.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a subjective preference, but it certainly doesn't mean your subjective evaluation is accurate. Personally I trust the subjective evaluations of the recording engineers much more than any general audio enthusiast. Unless of course you personally know the people, have listened together to many systems, and both form an opinion that you can agree on. But still that doesn't mean it's more accurate, or true to the source, it only means you both subjectively prefer that type of sound profile.
Real engineers read forums and laugh about what people say about their gear. This is because they know exactly what they did to the circuit to make people have that subjective impression. And it wasn't anything that makes it sound more true to the source. Most often the complete opposite.
Yes Tom, I too took the bait on this very forum to spend my own money to fly to someone's home and participate in an unspecified blind test.
Same tesult.
I assure you what is put forth as dbt protocol here is laughable to those who do it professionally. I know that because they have posted it here.
Same tesult.
I assure you what is put forth as dbt protocol here is laughable to those who do it professionally. I know that because they have posted it here.
Hello, Tom. While this thread may be in the measurements forum, please allow me to remind you of the title of this thread....." Placebo effects in the extreme".
How is one to measure a placebo effect?
For the record, I was speaking as to the topic at hand....and how could I possibly graph or measure that I trust my ears? That's just silly.
Tom
How is one to measure a placebo effect?
For the record, I was speaking as to the topic at hand....and how could I possibly graph or measure that I trust my ears? That's just silly.
Tom
What Mike? I can't hear you! Speak up!
No, Mike. I do not. A hearing test would prove what exactly? Could it prove that I could possibly hear a distinction between one capacitor or another? Could it prove that I could hear a distinction between one tube or another? I don't see what a hearing test on my part would prove to anybody. Kind of like proving what the measurements are of the placebo effect. 'Knaw mean?
Tom
No, Mike. I do not. A hearing test would prove what exactly? Could it prove that I could possibly hear a distinction between one capacitor or another? Could it prove that I could hear a distinction between one tube or another? I don't see what a hearing test on my part would prove to anybody. Kind of like proving what the measurements are of the placebo effect. 'Knaw mean?
Tom
What? I can't hear you! Speak up!
No, Mike. I do not. A hearing test would prove what exactly? Could it prove that I could possibly hear a distinction between one capacitor or another? Could it prove that I could hear a distinction between one tube or another? I don't see what a hearing test on my part would prove to anybody. Kind of like proving what the measurements are of the placebo effect. 'Knaw mean?
Tom
What it would do is let you know how good you can actually hear. It would maybe shine some light on why you subjectively prefer some types of audio gear as well.
No doubt. Maybe what I should be looking into making is audiophile hearing aids. Completely correct the response of human hearing just like a set of glasses do for the eyes. Just imagine that
I don't really care about tos. I try my best to adhere to a moral code.
Sorry ,l don't see my ears as lab instruments. I guarantee anything I hear most others can hear. As I told Amir, I am no auditory freak. You might not care to hear it and you definitely may not like it, but you can hear what I hear . That's a straw man argument. I am not Mike Lavigne. He's like EF Hutton of audiophiles. When he talks, I listen.
I said it before. I share my opinion and you give it what attention and weight you deem appropriate.
the source of friction tween the 2 camps is the interjection of the measurebators in subjective threads with the intent to destroy the said "tweaky or foo" product , rain on the parade and the "save audiophools from themselves " mentality -- and they cloak it as "scientific investigation".
It all sucks
If they did not interject .. there would be much more harmony.
At the end of it all , you have to trust your ears/brain . AS I said before , what you percieve or hear *is* YOUR reality.
It all sucks
If they did not interject .. there would be much more harmony.
At the end of it all , you have to trust your ears/brain . AS I said before , what you percieve or hear *is* YOUR reality.
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