Placebo effects in the extreme

amirm · Feb 22, 2016

JackD201 said:
Well, we're all entitled to our approaches to this hobby. If you guys want to bust out mics and laptops for fun, knock yourselves out. Just respect that that is not fun to many people.

It is not fun for anyone to do rigorous tests. I am sure it is no fun in the medical industry either. But if we want data and not falsehoods, and proceed to convince others on forums, then it is required work. Fun or not.

The great way to avoid doing such tests by the way is to take the time to learn the technology and psychoacoustics, and make determinations based on that. I find that enriching to know more about the audio than the day before by reading someone's research or learning from their knowledge. It is for this reason that for every hour of testing I do, I listen and enjoy 1000 hours of music.

We all share the love of music and attempting to say that some of us don't and love to test is uncool. Really uncool.

RayDunzl · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
Are you asking that independent of the point I made?

I don't know, responding to your statement "No. You should trust your ears 1000%. It is the brain that incorporates other senses and imagination is the thing you don't want to trust."

If I have defective ears, should I trust them 1000%?

Brain or no brain there are some things I won't hear.

I trust mine much less than 100%, but certainly more than 0%.

I tend to wait for my audio buddy to come over for beer saturday for a second opinion, without prompting him upon what he is to opine.

bonzo75 · Feb 22, 2016

RayDunzl said:
I don't know, responding to your statement "No. You should trust your ears 1000%. It is the brain that incorporates other senses and imagination is the thing you don't want to trust."

If I have defective ears, should I trust them 1000%?

Brain or no brain there are some things I won't hear.

I trust mine much less than 100%, but certainly more than 0%.

I tend to wait for my audio buddy to come over for beer saturday for a second opinion, without prompting him upon what he is to opine.

Exactly - these placebo guys don't get that last part - I mean, who ever heard of calling for second or third opinion and redoing a test? It is assumed that all tests are done by us alone, once, and imagining that what the dealer told us about the product is right because we paid for it. Most of the tests I have done are anyway not on propducts paid for, because we do it in each other's system, so maybe one guy has paid for it, or borrowed it from a friend or whatever.

JackD201 · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
It is not fun for anyone to do rigorous tests. I am sure it is no fun in the medical industry either. But if we want data and not falsehoods, and proceed to convince others on forums, then it is required work. Fun or not.

The great way to avoid doing such tests by the way is to take the time to learn the technology and psychoacoustics, and make determinations based on that. I find that enriching to know more about the audio than the day before by reading someone's research or learning from their knowledge. It is for this reason that for every hour of testing I do, I listen and enjoy 1000 hours of music.

We all share the love of music and attempting to say that some of us don't and love to test is uncool. Really uncool.

As usual you cherry pick but need you pull a straw man too? I'm sure it is clear as day that my "knock yourselves out" statement in no way precluded musical enjoyment. If I had wanted to say that I would have no qualms saying it straight out. I'm just curious when you decided that it was your job to convince anybody about anything on a board of hobbyists who apparently require some form of saving. It sure would be the absolute right thing to do as part of an engineering team. You all want to put out the best product that you can. Here the basic goal when it comes to reproduction isn't in consensus. Well, again, knock yourself out.

amirm · Feb 22, 2016

RayDunzl said:
I don't know, responding to your statement "No. You should trust your ears 1000%. It is the brain that incorporates other senses and imagination is the thing you don't want to trust."

If I have defective ears, should I trust them 1000%?

Depends on the outcome you seek. If it is to satisfy yourself, I see no reason to not do that. If you want to develop an opinion about audio that is durable to others, then no, you can't trust a defective ear any more than you can trust a defective measurement device. I tend to live in the latter so knowing my hearing loss and how it might impact my evaluations is important consideration for me. The fix for it though is not to do sighted tests or believe in what people say on forums and such.

treitz3 · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
We all share the love of music and attempting to say that some of us don't and love to test is uncool. Really uncool.

Well, I will be uncool and say that for me? I could give a rats @$$. Especially when it gets shoved down our throats. Some of us actually do trust their ears. I am not the only one on this forum that thinks this way either. If you want proof, take a look at the "Do you trust your ears" thread.

Tom

amirm · Feb 22, 2016

JackD201 said:
As usual you cherry pick but need you pull a straw man too? I'm sure it is clear as day that my "knock yourselves out" statement in no way precluded musical enjoyment. If I had wanted to say that I would have no qualms saying it straight out. I'm just curious when you decided that it was your job to convince anybody about anything on a board of hobbyists who apparently require some form of saving. It sure would be the absolute right thing to do as part of an engineering team. You all want to put out the best product that you can. Here the basic goal when it comes to reproduction isn't in consensus. Well, again, knock yourself out.

Your post is all about me and not the topic of the thread. I will answer but I appreciate not continuing to go this way.

I have many interests. One of them is love of learning and teaching. I have been teaching classes for 35+ years. I love sharing what I know and the warm reaction you get when someone learns from you. And inversely, I love it when I am sitting in a class myself and in 10 seconds I learn something that has taken the teacher years to learn.

Same is true on forums. I learn and I share what I know.

Sadly a forum is not nearly as efficient as other means to do that. You get constant interference and unkind remarks like the one I am responding to. We are dealing with a bunch of vocal males who let testosterone write their posts than wisdom and respect. So I resort to writing articles for sharing, and reading research/industry papers, and attending conferences/interacting with fellow designers.

What forums have is the broad participation so faults and all, I participate.

And there is absolute consensus in the professional audio research/engineering about a lot of things you guys doubt. Your assertion otherwise doesn't amount to anything. As you say, knock yourself out by saying it. The world of audio where such answers matter, goes on ignoring your protests.

Gregadd · Feb 22, 2016

Speedskater said:
If there is 'homeopathic medicine' then surely there is 'placebo medicine'. But 'placebo medicine' is much less dangerous.

Homeopathic medicine is nothing new. Patent medicine has only been around about 150 years or so. Given its' toxic nature and limited effectiveness there needs to be an alternative.

amirm · Feb 22, 2016

treitz3 said:
Well, I will be uncool and say that for me? I could give a rats @$$. Especially when it gets shoved down our throats. Some of us actually do trust their ears. I am not the only one on this forum that thinks this way either. If you want proof, take a look at the "Do you trust your ears" thread.

Tom

You are in a forum that has this on its door in neon light:

'A forum where objectivists can ask questions and exchange ideas regarding the science of audio as well as anything pertaining to audio that involves tests, measurements, ABX testing etc. We have all indicated a desire to read about the science behind our hobby but this is one forum where the subjectivists will not be allowed to derail or flame an objectivist thread with the comment "I trust my ears". As a result to all members this is intended to be a flame free forum and the warning on the door will say "Enter At Your Own Risk"'

Yet here you are, saying something is getting shoved in your throat? Are you a child that needs me to hold your hand and take you out of threads that bother you? WHy is it that I can ignore a thread on turntables and you don't have the intellectual will to ignore someone talking about engineering and science behind some product indicating it may not work?

I will answer: it is called intolerance. It is called wanting to not remotely look wrong. It is called let me suffocate the other voices. Where is Greg when we need him to make his point about censorship. That is what is being shoved in people's throat.

I don't go read my wife's Kindle' books. By your logic she should not buy any books I don't approve since we both live in the same household.

So trust your ears or not. I don't care. Just don't attempt to close down other people's conversation because it bothers you that they exist.

RayDunzl · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
Depends on the outcome you seek. If it is to satisfy yourself, I see no reason to not do that. If you want to develop an opinion about audio that is durable to others, then no, you can't trust a defective ear any more than you can trust a defective measurement device. I tend to live in the latter so knowing my hearing loss and how it might impact my evaluations is important consideration for me. The fix for it though is not to do sighted tests or believe in what people say on forums and such.

I'm so gullible I've learned to force myself to be excessively skeptical about most things.

And based on my infirmity, as well as a lack of access to competitive devices, I don't try to convince anyone of anything sonic. Come over, listen to what I have, see if it suits you, that would be about my limit. Nobody will, so, that settles that.

Measurements - I like an honest measurement, when adequately performed and documented.

Wordy descriptions of sonic bliss - generally skeptical, and not particularly entertained by them.

JackD201 · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
Your post is all about me and not the topic of the thread. I will answer but I appreciate not continuing to go this way.

I have many interests. One of them is love of learning and teaching. I have been teaching classes for 35+ years. I love sharing what I know and the warm reaction you get when someone learns from you. And inversely, I love it when I am sitting in a class myself and in 10 seconds I learn something that has taken the teacher years to learn.

Same is true on forums. I learn and I share what I know.

Sadly a forum is not nearly as efficient as other means to do that. You get constant interference and unkind remarks like the one I am responding to. We are dealing with a bunch of vocal males who let testosterone write their posts than wisdom and respect. So I resort to writing articles for sharing, and reading research/industry papers, and attending conferences/interacting with fellow designers.

What forums have is the broad participation so faults and all, I participate.

And there is absolute consensus in the professional audio research/engineering about a lot of things you guys doubt. Your assertion otherwise doesn't amount to anything. As you say, knock yourself out by saying it. The world of audio where such answers matter, goes on ignoring your protests.

It became about you the moment you put words in my mouth. Which again you just did, saying I protest progress. Now sharing is one thing, convincing is another. You know I don't think you've ever thought of the possibility that I might actually understand or for that matter agree with where you're coming from. I know you did a lot of work that required a product to be as true to the source as possible. So I see how this approach is your chosen one. It is one that is by nature uncompromising. I and many others who are simply in it for the pleasure are not bound to your absolutes. When I have my industry hat on, I absolutely care about how things work because I have to. Systems need not fit one mold. Systems must be built around a purpose. If you are doing recording, mixing, archiving I'll give you ruler flat every single time. If you just want to have a good time, we're going to have to go through a long interview period just to get me started.

As for unkind remarks, I don't see anybody not making them. Didn't you just give a fellow member a putdown even referencing his profession? Didn't the very same OP of this thread once refer to my thoughts as Pablum? I'm just playing by the rules you've set. This is the Hyde Park of cyberspace isn't it?

Gregadd · Feb 22, 2016

1000hrs/24hrs/day=41. 6days. I suspect a typo.

nc42acc · Feb 22, 2016

All I can say is "The mind is a terrible thing" be it audio or medicine.

Steve Williams · Feb 22, 2016

No, it shows once again denial of how our perceptions work, sadly coming from a doctor who should know this cold. What is the saying in high-end restaurants? That we eat with our eyes and hence the reason they make the plate pretty?

what a joke

Next time I look with my eyes I will pick the desert that looks twice as good

Straw man arguments is what you excel at

None of us seem to be greeting the fuzzy feelings from your teachings that you claim to possess for 35+ years

Steve Williams · Feb 22, 2016

This is the Hyde Park of cyberspace isn't it?

more the "black hole"of cyber space as I see it

RayDunzl · Feb 22, 2016

I don't understand the political division and animosity among participants between measuring and listening.

They are complementary tasks, in my opinion.

com·ple·men·ta·ry
adjective

1. combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another.

Steve Williams · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
You are in a forum that has this on its door in neon light:

'A forum where objectivists can ask questions and exchange ideas regarding the science of audio as well as anything pertaining to audio that involves tests, measurements, ABX testing etc. We have all indicated a desire to read about the science behind our hobby but this is one forum where the subjectivists will not be allowed to derail or flame an objectivist thread with the comment "I trust my ears". As a result to all members this is intended to be a flame free forum and the warning on the door will say "Enter At Your Own Risk"'

Yet here you are, saying something is getting shoved in your throat? Are you a child that needs me to hold your hand and take you out of threads that bother you? WHy is it that I can ignore a thread on turntables and you don't have the intellectual will to ignore someone talking about engineering and science behind some product indicating it may not work?

I will answer: it is called intolerance. It is called wanting to not remotely look wrong. It is called let me suffocate the other voices. Where is Greg when we need him to make his point about censorship. That is what is being shoved in people's throat.

I don't go read my wife's Kindle' books. By your logic she should not buy any books I don't approve since we both live in the same household.

So trust your ears or not. I don't care. Just don't attempt to close down other people's conversation because it bothers you that they exist.

as I see it lately you and your objectivist friends continually invade most every subjectivist thread here and not only derail it and take it off topic so I am trying to understand how you want to have the umbrella of protection at your door but those of us who choose to discuss things in subjectivist threads are finding that you and others enter these threads and totally derail them and take them off topic and continue to escape unscathed and without criticism so even though I created the door entry sign this can be easily changed. OTOH however it seems to me that subjectivist threads should (and will !!) be protected in the future by ANYONE who enters and does to those threads what you are trying to prevent here. The double standard is going to end.

Steve Williams · Feb 22, 2016

We were better at the same bit rate as them but not a 2:1 advantage

I personally totally disbelieve this.

Prove to me that someone can say yes its better but just not a 2:1 advantage. This claim IMO is plain silly

still-one · Feb 22, 2016

amirm said:
You are in a forum that has this on its door in neon light:

'A forum where objectivists can ask questions and exchange ideas regarding the science of audio as well as anything pertaining to audio that involves tests, measurements, ABX testing etc. We have all indicated a desire to read about the science behind our hobby but this is one forum where the subjectivists will not be allowed to derail or flame an objectivist thread with the comment "I trust my ears". As a result to all members this is intended to be a flame free forum and the warning on the door will say "Enter At Your Own Risk"'

Yet here you are, saying something is getting shoved in your throat? Are you a child that needs me to hold your hand and take you out of threads that bother you? WHy is it that I can ignore a thread on turntables and you don't have the intellectual will to ignore someone talking about engineering and science behind some product indicating it may not work?

I will answer: it is called intolerance. It is called wanting to not remotely look wrong. It is called let me suffocate the other voices. Where is Greg when we need him to make his point about censorship. That is what is being shoved in people's throat.

I don't go read my wife's Kindle' books. By your logic she should not buy any books I don't approve since we both live in the same household.

So trust your ears or not. I don't care. Just don't attempt to close down other people's conversation because it bothers you that they exist.

Easy Amir. You do realize that many (most?) of us just hit the "Whats New" or "Recent Activity" buttons to see recents posts and pay no attention to what "Thread" it belongs to.

amirm · Feb 22, 2016

still-one said:
Easy Amir. You do realize that many (most?) of us just hit the "Whats New" or "Recent Activity" buttons to see recents posts and pay no attention to what "Thread" it belongs to.

I realize that and hence the reason this forum has a different background color. And the discussion and posts clearly indicate such. As a minimum our admins and mods know or need to know what forum they are in before declaring things that go directly against the very charter Steve wrote.

Placebo effects in the extreme

Banned

New Member

Member Sponsor

WBF Founding Member

Banned

Super Moderator

Banned

WBF Founding Member

Banned

New Member

WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

New Member

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

VIP/Donor

Banned

Similar threads