Placebo effects in the extreme

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jkeny

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Viewpoint is another word for Opinion.

And that is not what I said. I said "The objectivist is nothing more than a subjectivist not afraid to explore what they heard"
You pulled an extract from my post about neither subjs or objs having a superior opinion - but I don't follow your line of debate sinc - are you or are you not saying that objectivists have a superior viewpoint/opinion?

I guess you will have to backup "probably served the industry well in the past but that are fairly basic in extent & execution & still not correlated to what we hear."

Sounds like conjecture to me. I use a measurement Mic system. I use a pro-audio mastering interface that has inputs that I jack into with RMAA. There are Scopes, Audio Precision Analyzers. Da' Werks.

Check out: http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5540
Right & you have a set of measurements that correlate to what we hear?
 

jkeny

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Some changes are so obviously such a huge improvement there is no need for equivocation or comparison, for example removing my +20dB 28Hz resonance, hugely better no question.
But not everything's so black and white, at the very least level matching would appear to me to be a good idea, and sometimes conduct the component comparison unsighted might be necessary.
I don't believe that would be too arduous for anyone.
Nobody said it was - do you not believe many subjectivists also do this?
But I'll ask you again - are you calling this "the scientific method"
I know how easily it is to be influenced by marketing, magazines and salesmen, I am as susceptible as anyone else.
Keith.
Irrelevant to the question I asked you - how did what you did overcame your "negative bias"?
 

Jinjuku

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You pulled an extract from my post about neither subjs or objs having a superior opinion - but I don't follow your line of debate sinc - are you or are you not saying that objectivists have a superior viewpoint/opinion?

If you can't get the the obvious meaning of what I'm posting I doubt any more verbiage from me will help.

Re-read what I typed about the objectivist in the context I typed it and try to find out how I'm supporting my position. You will then have your answer.
 

jkeny

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Why are you objecting to this being pointed out?

I'm not objecting to it being pointed out - I'm objecting to the way it is being done - at every opportunity & in a sarcastic manner

In fact I thought it opened up a whole area for interesting discussion - that of the prevalence of sub-optimal grounding in audio equipment, particularly when computers are involved. I felt that this would be of benefit to all concerned if the objectivists were to engage in a useful discussion of this nature but there seemed to be no willingness.

I'm willing to accept that the whole job of this device is to affect sub-optimal grounding (as was proposed) but I haven't seen the evidence for this yet. I guess there's no willingness to investigate further.
 

Jinjuku

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Right & you have a set of measurements that correlate to what we hear?

If you bothered with the link in reference to the AQ HDMI cable debacle you would see exactly that. But since you're asking it means you either didn't bother to read or you failed to comprehend.

So which is it?
 

BE718

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I'm not objecting to it being pointed out - I'm objecting to the way it is being done - at every opportunity & in a sarcastic manner

In fact I thought it opened up a whole area for interesting discussion - that of the prevalence of sub-optimal grounding in audio equipment, particularly when computers are involved. I felt that this would be of benefit to all concerned if the objectivists were to engage in a useful discussion of this nature but there seemed to be no willingness.

I'm willing to accept that the whole job of this device is to affect sub-optimal grounding (as was proposed) but I haven't seen the evidence for this yet. I guess there's no willingness to investigate further.

You exaggerate. I object to the ad hominem intended to stop the product from being criticised. That is far worse.

The subject of grounding has been discussed. So I am not sure what you are referring to. I think you will find it was the subjectivists Who were not interested in discussing the technicalities, they seemed to prefer faith in their boxes.

Well my suggestion is you could start by doing some googling on the subject, plenty of info out there. Then you can come up with some specifics you want to discuss.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Went to use the restroom in the grocery store today. I walked in and noticed they had taken all the urinals out and put in more closed in toilets. No problem. Go in one, raise the lid, do my business. Come out and wash my hands. Then try to get all the loose hairs out of my hair as I had just had a hair cut. As I am looking at the mirror doing that, I see something no man should see in a restroom: a woman washing her hands! Then the truth dawned on me. I was in ladies room! The lady though, was 100% cool and did not even blink at the sign of a male in that restroom. Breathed a sigh of relief and ran out as fast as I could.

Me thinks if that lady could tolerate me in that situation, we should easily be able to do that among ourselves in this forum with mixed backgrounds...

I missed that post yesterday, please forgive me there are so many posts to read recently that it's taking time now to keep up...great...that's the way it should be.

Good post, good example, adapting to the world's circumstances as they come, and without forgetting which side of the sun we have risen.
 

jkeny

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I didn't see that link - did you add it in an edit or maybe I just missed it - will have a read but can you give the exec summary conclusion - did he find objective evidence?
 

RBFC

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It would probably go smoother if measurements were posted and objective statements made as to what electrical and sonic effects should be expected from a certain product. Further comments that someone is stupid if they paid money for a certain product are where things seem to go downhill. I also believe that many subjectivists would object far less to demands for testing if that process were not accompanied by personal comments. I further believe that subjectivists could learn a few things from well-conducted measurements, if they were not engaged in fighting over personal insecurities and buying decisions. It all boils down to how we conduct our conversations. I've posted as moderator that "it's not the song, it's the singer" and I sincerely believe that the free exchange of information without personal focus (by both "sides") would be extremely beneficial.

People don't buy Rolls Royce automobiles based on their 0-60 measurement, although that is a solid objective performance factor. Instead, the feel & sound of the door closing (the CD tray closing, in other examples) also form some of the buying decision criteria. We MUST refrain from placing our own preferences and values upon others as we consider equipment. There are simply more factors in play.

For every subjectivist "sucker" that buys a tweak that measures worthless, there remains the fact that he may be perfectly happy. Folks also spend several hundred dollars oer month to buy coffee from Starbucks.... Your personal funds are exactly that, and none of us on a forum should deny each other their personal indulgences. The person who buys this tweak should not resent those who measure it and report on its performance, rather, they should appreciate the information and realize that not all happiness is measurable in this manner.

Likewise, objectivists have a hard road with subjectivist audiophiles, in that they do not always have the deep, cultural appreciation for music that is the true raison d'etre for high-end audio. One well-known objectivist did not know what the Solti "Ring Cycle" was (one of the most famous recordings of all time), nor did this individual know Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor", the most famous organ work of all. The music-lover's "camp" may then immediately infer that the objectivists care not about the art and culture of music, but merely post to interfere with the love of music and art.

See, both sides have valid points and both sides have shortcomings. Welcome to the human race! Hopefully, as we move forward, my comments here will cause everyone to consider the correctness of others' posts, rather than seek the conflict.

Lee
 

jkeny

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You exaggerate. I object to the ad hominem intended to stop the product from being criticised. That is far worse.

The subject of grounding has been discussed. So I am not sure what you are referring to. I think you will find it was the subjectivists Who were not interested in discussing the technicalities, they seemed to prefer faith in their boxes.

Well my suggestion is you could start by doing some googling on the subject, plenty of info out there. Then you can come up with some specifics you want to discuss.
OK, there is a theory that ground noise modulation accounts for many of the brittleness & brightness issues with digital audio - have you any interest in this & what measurements are you aware of that investigates this?
 

Jinjuku

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I didn't see that link - did you add it in an edit or maybe I just missed it - will have a read but can you give the exec summary conclusion - did he find objective evidence?

The link was there from the get-go.

There was a 10dB difference from the generic HDMI cable vs AQ's top of the line. Each AQ cable stepped up dB wise as the price went up.
 

Gregadd

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Jinjuku

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I thought you were saying Chris proposed a test with Michael Fremer and Chris backed out.

The Randi Foundation/Fremer item has such a high SNR that I don't bother trying to make tales of he said / she said.

If Mr. Fremer wants to test some 1.5 meter HDMI or Ethernet cables I'm more than willing to work through an evaluation protocol.
 

Gregadd

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I thought you were saying Chris proposed a test with Michael Fremer and Chris backed out.

The Randi Foundation/Fremer item has such a high SNR that I don't bother trying to make tales of he said / she said.

If Mr. Fremer wants to test some 1.5 meter HDMI or Ethernet cables I'm more than willing to work through an evaluation protocol.

IIRC Fremer has been called a "lucky coin "due to his succes in ABX challenges. IIRC after the debacle at AES where his perfect score was tossed out, he said he was not going to do it anymore.
Feel free to contact him.
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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If you can't get the the obvious meaning of what I'm posting I doubt any more verbiage from me will help.

Re-read what I typed about the objectivist in the context I typed it and try to find out how I'm supporting my position. You will then have your answer.

Sorry, I'm not interested in your debating tactics - when someone doesn't answer a simple question, I'm not interested in communicating with them
Ah, I see now the reason for the AQ link - another Foo merchant exposed - isn't the world a terrible place!
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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IIRC Fremer has been called a "lucky coin "due to his succes in ABX challenges. IIRC after the debacle at AES where his perfect score was tossed out, he said he was not going to do it anymore.
Feel free to contact him.

I believe Amir's positive ABX results were dismissed as him "cheating" by objectivists & the idea of proctoring became the next requirement to "proving" the "evidence"
 

Jinjuku

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Apr 18, 2011
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IIRC Fremer has been called a "lucky coin "due to his succes in ABX challenges. IIRC after the debacle at AES where his perfect score was tossed out, he said he was not going to do it anymore.
Feel free to contact him.

Hmmm... I wonder what the AES reasoning was.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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It would probably go smoother if measurements were posted and objective statements made as to what electrical and sonic effects should be expected from a certain product. Further comments that someone is stupid if they paid money for a certain product are where things seem to go downhill. I also believe that many subjectivists would object far less to demands for testing if that process were not accompanied by personal comments. I further believe that subjectivists could learn a few things from well-conducted measurements, if they were not engaged in fighting over personal insecurities and buying decisions. It all boils down to how we conduct our conversations. I've posted as moderator that "it's not the song, it's the singer" and I sincerely believe that the free exchange of information without personal focus (by both "sides") would be extremely beneficial.

People don't buy Rolls Royce automobiles based on their 0-60 measurement, although that is a solid objective performance factor. Instead, the feel & sound of the door closing (the CD tray closing, in other examples) also form some of the buying decision criteria. We MUST refrain from placing our own preferences and values upon others as we consider equipment. There are simply more factors in play.

For every subjectivist "sucker" that buys a tweak that measures worthless, there remains the fact that he may be perfectly happy. Folks also spend several hundred dollars oer month to buy coffee from Starbucks.... Your personal funds are exactly that, and none of us on a forum should deny each other their personal indulgences. The person who buys this tweak should not resent those who measure it and report on its performance, rather, they should appreciate the information and realize that not all happiness is measurable in this manner.

Likewise, objectivists have a hard road with subjectivist audiophiles, in that they do not always have the deep, cultural appreciation for music that is the true raison d'etre for high-end audio. One well-known objectivist did not know what the Solti "Ring Cycle" was (one of the most famous recordings of all time), nor did this individual know Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor", the most famous organ work of all. The music-lover's "camp" may then immediately infer that the objectivists care not about the art and culture of music, but merely post to interfere with the love of music and art.

See, both sides have valid points and both sides have shortcomings. Welcome to the human race! Hopefully, as we move forward, my comments here will cause everyone to consider the correctness of others' posts, rather than seek the conflict.

Lee

Great post Lee, +1

I do not see why those in the Subjectivist camp cannot accept the fact that those in the Objectivist camp are just as welcome in the hobby--and vice versa. What I do feel is a problem, is when one side wants to ram down the throats of the other that their 'belief' ( and BTW, this is truly ONLY what it is) is superior to the other side. We have had on this forum a few people ( mostly in the Objectivist side it would seem) that behave in that manner. One of them even went as far as to call me an 'idiot' because I did not agree with his thoughts on a speaker brand ( that I know very well;) ) and which he ultimately admitted he had little experience with. ( BUT, knew the sound of because he was so familiar with the design of the drivers that his postulations had to be correct----except for one minor detail; they were not! :rolleyes:)

In this instance, instead of getting into name calling ( as some here are want to do) I simply withdrew from the discussion and let the gent go on his merry way. That would seem to be the best and least path of resistance in events like this....at least IMHO.
Remember, there are some members here ( and it would seem on all forums....as I have experienced this across the web) who have to 'win' no matter what...that means they absolutely have to have the last word. I say, let them, LOL.
 

Jinjuku

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Sorry, I'm not interested in your debating tactics - when someone doesn't answer a simple question, I'm not interested in communicating with them

Jesus wept...

Here goes:

Opinion 1: I heard an AQ video where I swear I hear a difference as they climb up the food chain. This is reasonably subjective. It could even be accurate.

Opinion 2: I heard an AQ video where I swear I hear a difference as they climb up the food chain. I wanted to know more about what I was hearing so stripped out the audio track and fed it into the input of my ADC and plotted the 4 different repeat tracks and found up to a ~10dB boost and it wasn't linear. This is reasonably objective.

In this case YES the Opinion 2 person is certainly very much more correct and relevant.
 

jkeny

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Jesus wept...

Here goes:

Opinion 1: I heard an AQ video where I swear I hear a difference as they climb up the food chain. This is reasonably subjective. It could even be accurate.

Opinion 2: I heard an AQ video where I swear I hear a difference as they climb up the food chain. I wanted to know more about what I was hearing so stripped out the audio track and fed it into the input of my ADC and plotted the 4 different repeat tracks and found up to a ~10dB boost and it wasn't linear. This is reasonably objective.

In this case YES the Opinion 2 person is certainly very much more correct and relevant.

I have no difficulty with the AQ stuff - Waldrep measured the tracks & found a manufactured volume difference between them which was a sales trick to fool people into thinking some differences existed in these HDMI cables. Sales men have been using vol. tricks for years & yes, it's inexcusable & should be exposed

I'm not talking about that - you picked out an extract of my post "nor objectivists have a superior viewpoint." & replied "That's a fabrication of the worst pandering kind"

I asked you if you think obj opinion/viewpoint is superior & you avoid answering, instead going into this AQ stuff. As I said if you won't address the question, I'm just not interested in obfuscation
 
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