TW Acustic vs. Kronos? Sonic differences for these $40K tables?

spiritofmusic

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I found the previous comment that the Kronos darker, more silent, most delicate v the TW Raven AC as more dynamic, in relation to the TW having greater torque than the Kronos VERY illuminating.
 

microstrip

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I found the previous comment that the Kronos darker, more silent, most delicate v the TW Raven AC as more dynamic, in relation to the TW having greater torque than the Kronos VERY illuminating.

You are referring to belt drive turntables - we must see that the characteristics of the belt and moment of inertia of the platter can be much more important than something you have not been able to define and we imprecisely and generically are calling "torque".
 

bonzo75

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I found the previous comment that the Kronos darker, more silent, most delicate v the TW Raven AC as more dynamic, in relation to the TW having greater torque than the Kronos VERY illuminating.

Also different carts, and the Miyajima madake definitely is more laid back than sound Smith (not sure of the shilabe). Though I agree kronos is a bit laid back
 

spiritofmusic

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Micro, are you saying the ability to push thru serious groove modulation, dealing successfully w stylus drag, is NOT a function of torque?
For not, what then?
 

PeterA

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You are referring to belt drive turntables - we must see that the characteristics of the belt and moment of inertia of the platter can be much more important than something you have not been able to define and we imprecisely and generically are calling "torque".

Agreed. There are many variables at play here: platter weight, distribution of that weight, belt length, shape and elasticity, belt exposure/contact area, plus the number of motors, their design, how they are regulated. Then there is platter surface material, global versus local isolation and energy drainage and dissipation. There is also bearing design and the amount of friction. Massive plinth, or skeleton design, or minimal footprint. What materials? I think discussion contributions from various TT designers would be VERY illuminating.

Bonzo brings up perhaps the key point: one must compare two turntables with the same arm and cartridge in the same system with the same music to truly understand differences.
 
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PeterA

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Micro, are you saying the ability to push thru serious groove modulation, dealing successfully w stylus drag, is NOT a function of torque?
For not, what then?

Platter inertia is another factor. Marc, are you talking about high torque light platter, or high torque heavy platter, and where and how is the platter weight distributed?

I read a discussion of a turntable design that was to use a high torque rim drive mechanism to get the massive platter up to speed, and then it would disengage. Then a low torque, quiet motor and thread drive with minimal tension would maintain proper speed. The momentum of the massive platter and slippage of the thread would maintain speed and isolate motor vibrations from the platter.

Again, I don't think one should focus so intently on just one attribute like a high torque motor to make generalized pronouncements about turntable performance.
 

microstrip

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Micro, are you saying the ability to push thru serious groove modulation, dealing successfully w stylus drag, is NOT a function of torque?
For not, what then?

It is complex situation - the white paper of Grand Prix exposes the problems fairly well, although surely they have a strong bias towards their solution. https://www.google.pt/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7xeTBjOHVAhWK2xoKHSFKATMQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.grandprixaudio.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fproduct%2Fmanuals%2FMonaco-Turntable-Whitepaper.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGt3bk0l1V92wJ4gH6xT2uNYKyNwA
In brief, the question is also the time of the response, not just the force.
 

microstrip

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(...) Bonzo brings up perhaps the key point: one must compare two turntables with the same arm and cartridge in the same system with the same music to truly understand differences.

But then you have to pick an arm and cartridge that shines in both turntables - otherwise you will mainly listening for arm and cartridge compatibility with the turntable. Remember when people compared the Linn Ittok with the SME V in the Linn Sondek and concluded that Ittok was a much better tonearm? :D

As it was very easy to move it between turntables (just a single small 1/8" hole) I tried the Eminent Technology II air bearing tonearm in many platforms. The outcome was surprising - I had great hopes in the Thorens TD124 and it sounded miserable, although unstable it sounded great in Linn and Oracle, very good in a Roksan Xerxes and poor in the Technics SP10. IMHO I was listening mainly to the interaction of tonearm / turntable.
 

bonzo75

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But then you have to pick an arm and cartridge that shines in both turntables - otherwise you will mainly listening for arm and cartridge compatibility with the turntable. Remember when people compared the Linn Ittok with the SME V in the Linn Sondek and concluded that Ittok was a much better tonearm? :D

As it was very easy to move it between turntables (just a single small 1/8" hole) I tried the Eminent Technology II air bearing tonearm in many platforms. The outcome was surprising - I had great hopes in the Thorens TD124 and it sounded miserable, although unstable it sounded great in Linn and Oracle, very good in a Roksan Xerxes and poor in the Technics SP10. IMHO I was listening mainly to the interaction of tonearm / turntable.

I don't think you can always have same arm and cart, so TT auditions are much more difficult than digital auditions (bait ;))

My point was that when you read that one TT is laid back, and one is not, it is possible to check and see that the cart on the laid back TT is laid back, while on the one not is not, and then use other experiences of that TT.
 

bonzo75

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But then you have to pick an arm and cartridge that shines in both turntables - otherwise you will mainly listening for arm and cartridge compatibility with the turntable. Remember when people compared the Linn Ittok with the SME V in the Linn Sondek and concluded that Ittok was a much better tonearm? :D

As it was very easy to move it between turntables (just a single small 1/8" hole) I tried the Eminent Technology II air bearing tonearm in many platforms. The outcome was surprising - I had great hopes in the Thorens TD124 and it sounded miserable, although unstable it sounded great in Linn and Oracle, very good in a Roksan Xerxes and poor in the Technics SP10. IMHO I was listening mainly to the interaction of tonearm / turntable.

What differences did you note in 124, Linn, and Oracle?
 

microstrip

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What differences did you note in 124, Linn, and Oracle?

The 124 sounded terribly flat and boring, the Linn extremely dynamic and vivid - really enjoyable. But it could only paly half of of the record, because of suspension bounce. The Oracle sounded very clean, low noise and defined with good imaging. Please remember that tests were carried almost 30 years ago, with original unmodified turntables.

I still keep the ET II - currently one of the best tonearm bargains we can get if we know how to align it and have a good air pump. Many people report negative experiences with it because the original pump did not have an air pressure meter and the pump diaphragms can be now worn out. Not a problem - it is just a common good quality silent aquarium pump easily available.
 

bonzo75

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The 124 sounded terribly flat and boring, the Linn extremely dynamic and vivid - really enjoyable. But it could only paly half of of the record, because of suspension bounce. The Oracle sounded very clean, low noise and defined with good imaging. Please remember that tests were carried almost 30 years ago, with original unmodified turntables.

I still keep the ET II - currently one of the best tonearm bargains we can get if we know how to align it and have a good air pump. Many people report negative experiences with it because the original pump did not have an air pressure meter and the pump diaphragms can be now worn out. Not a problem - it is just a common good quality silent aquarium pump easily available.

Yes I have heard great things about the ET from old vets
 

spiritofmusic

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Guys, the days of getting side by side demos of top tts and switching a cart from one to the other are long gone.
These days you have to choose yr budget, what attributes are most precious to you, and pick a small shortlist likely to fit yr list.
And then hear these tts, likely in v different rooms, w different ancillaries etc.
I was lucky enough to get a TW demo in my room, versus my eventual choice, but I wouldn't now.
Hell, I had to drive 600 mile round trip to hear my Straingauge cart in an alien system and make my decision.
For me, those tts w high torque are the ones that communicate the "essence" of live music more, power, dynamics, verve, swagger.
Amongst belt drives I'm most enamoured w Kuzma Stabi M, amongst idlers, well pretty much all.
I know Ked feels reasonably similarly, he's v taken w the Schopper and PTP, idlers par excellence, torquey and dynamic as anything out there I'm sure.
 

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