TW Acustic vs. Kronos? Sonic differences for these $40K tables?

I can't tell you yet. However, I just purchased a Kronos Limited Pro and a TW Acustic Raven AC (fully upgraded except for the full copper platter). I'll have both of these tables up and running in mid April. Personally, I believe that they are both GREAT state of the art tables. Not necessarily the same, different, but great overall.

Hopefully some other members with current on-hand experience can comment intelligently on the comparison!

I had seen and heard the Kronos for two or three years at the Rocky Mountain Fest on various systems and setups; it's sound and performance always impressed me. In particular I felt that it was the quietest TT (non-exsistent self noise) that I had ever auditioned. I read everything that I could find about the Kronos and began to notice just how many different audio reviewers from the US and around the world had nothing both universal praise for it's performance. The Kronos website has a page with links to all these reviews. It's not often that you can get ten or fifteen 'professional' audio reviewers to agree on the sonic attributes of a stereo product. However, that was in fact, just the case with the Kronos. More than one reviewer claimed that it was the 'best' in the world. Of course there is no real 'best' in my view; at this level it's all about system matching and synergy and individual listener basis (we all have them I think!).

Anyway, everything that I heard when listening to the Kronos convinced me that it's definitely a world class product. The technology is stunning and very innovative in my opinion; the counter rotating platters are brilliant ! I like the self adjusting speed control and the nice touch system to turn the table on/off. The platters come up to speed very quickly and very quietly.

I don't like 'tweakey' audio gear; I like set and forget. The design is simple yet elegant and the build quality looks impeccable. In many ways the TW Acustic TT's are much the same; smart yet simple design, beautiful and top-notch engineering quality. I'm think the build quality of the TW's surpasses even the Kronos.

Fortunately I am lucky enough to get both! I can't wait to hear both tables in my own room with my own gear! I have a feeling that I will really like and enjoy both of them. I doubt that either table will always sound better than the other; I'm guessing that it will depend more upon which records I happen to be playing and the particular mood that I'm in on that day.

The biggest drawback I think for the Kronos is that it can only handle one arm at a time. One of the nice things about the TW Raven AC is that it can accommodate up to four arms simultaneously.

Hard question without listening to both with the same arm and cart.

If I had answered this 2 months ago, I would have said probably the Kronos as I was unhappy with the sound of my TW. However, since I bought a Thales Simplicity II tonearm, the performance has gone up considerably. No desire to change tables now. The TW looks better imo - the Kronos is a bit too meccano for me but probably looks great in person thou.

Stickman is correct, having two arms or more arms is very cool. Not sure I could handle a table designed to be used with just one tonearm - to me it makes no sense - especially at 20K and above.

cheers

the tw with the thales arm sounds great indeed!

I can't comment on TW but I've owned a Kronos Sparta for almost a year now and I can tell you that the Kronos excels at "musicality" as you defined it in the original post. Part of what makes the Kronos tables special is that they do musicality so well without short changing the technical/analytical side.

hi chris,

congratulations on your lovely sparta tt.
can you please tell us some more about it?
looks like a much better value than the kronos pro. have you compared to any other tables in that price range?
which phonostage/cart do you use?

My previous table was a VPI Classic 1 (with the mini sds) w/3D arm, ring/hrx weight. The VPI is a very good table but the Kronos is a clear step up in all areas. I don't have any other comparisons to give you sorry. When I was table shopping it was between the VPI Avenger and the Kronos and I ended up with the Kronos both on the strength of it's sonics (I heard both in Montreal and preferred the Kronos) and also because Montreal is a 2 hour drive from me and Louis is a pleasure to work with. I have heard the Pro (now including SCPS) on a few occasions at Louis' house and I'm convinced it's a step up however I have never heard them side to side on the same setup so I can't give you the delta.

I use a Zyx Omega Premium cart. In terms of sonics that cart has average speed bass (lyra is faster) but it is full with excellent texture/tone and integration with mids. Mids on the Omega Premium are amazing and the strong point of the cartridge. The treble is slightly rolled and is about 5-6dB down by 15K. This cartridge is one of Louis' favorites to use at shows because even though it's slightly rolled everything sounds really really good through it.

Phono stage is a Trulife Argo with upgraded parts. It was the prototype used to develop the Kronos branded phono that Louis will be selling shortly. Made in Greece very similar to Ypsilon VPS-100 with the SUT to tubed MM and all transformers made in house however the Argo is 12AX7/12AU7 with EZ81 rectifiers vs the VPS100 Siemens C3g based design. (I'm using NOS Siemens E83/E82CC and Siemens EZ81 in mine)

Well I've had my Kronos Limited and Raven AC-2 for just over three months now and I can honestly say that I can't decide which table I like best! They are both wonderful! Some days I am convinced that the Kronos is better, others I lean towards the Raven. In all fairness, it's very difficult to accurately compare the two TT's because they have different arms and cartridges; I'm using Andre Theriault's 12" Black Beauty arm on the Kronos, and the TW Acustic Raven 10.5 on the Raven AC. I have a Miyajima Shilabe on the Black Beauty and a SoundSmith Sussurro on the Raven 10.5.

In general, I can confidently say that overall the Kronos is a quieter TT from the standpoint of self-noise. Sound pours out from a completely BLACK background with the Kronos and there's almost zero groove noise (this could be the result from the Shilabe however). The Kronos sounds so precise, so controlled, so incredibly quiet, it's spooky! The exception is the Kronos' motor which is not completely silent; I can hear it ever so slightly at the listening chair with no music playing. The Raven motor on the other hand is DEAD silent and extremely powerful with plenty of torque to spin the massive Raven platter. The Raven is more dynamic, presents a livelier and more upfront sound overall, and is a tab more 'extroverted' than the Kronos. Again, perhaps I'm hearing more of the characteristics of the cartridges than the tables. At some point I will switch cartridges, put the Shilabe on the Raven and the Sussurro on the Kronos but for now I am extremely happy with both tables. I will say this; when you consider that the Kronos costs (at retail) approx. 30% more than the Raven, and that the Raven can handle up to four arms (whereas the Kronos can only handle one arm) it's hard to go wrong with the TW! It's a wonderful, top echelon, table for sure!

Congratulations StickMan and thank you for sharing your impressions. These are wonderful tables. I am curious about a few things. First, did you consider other tables before settling on these two, and if so, which ones? And second, did you consider one table, more expensive than these two, which may or may not have higher performance like the TechDas which can accommodate two arms. I respect your interest in having variety - different arms, cartridges and tables to play with when the mood strikes. Was this a specific goal of yours?

Could you share some details about your system and music tastes?

StickMan451 said:

Well I've had my Kronos Limited and Raven AC-2 for just over three months now and I can honestly say that I can't decide which table I like best! They are both wonderful! Some days I am convinced that the Kronos is better, others I lean towards the Raven. In all fairness, it's very difficult to accurately compare the two TT's because they have different arms and cartridges; I'm using Andre Theriault's 12" Black Beauty arm on the Kronos, and the TW Acustic Raven 10.5 on the Raven AC. I have a Miyajima Shilabe on the Black Beauty and a SoundSmith Sussurro on the Raven 10.5.

In general, I can confidently say that overall the Kronos is a quieter TT from the standpoint of self-noise. Sound pours out from a completely BLACK background with the Kronos and there's almost zero groove noise (this could be the result from the Shilabe however). The Kronos sounds so precise, so controlled, so incredibly quiet, it's spooky! The exception is the Kronos' motor which is not completely silent; I can hear it ever so slightly at the listening chair with no music playing. The Raven motor on the other hand is DEAD silent and extremely powerful with plenty of torque to spin the massive Raven platter. The Raven is more dynamic, presents a livelier and more upfront sound overall, and is a tab more 'extroverted' than the Kronos. Again, perhaps I'm hearing more of the characteristics of the cartridges than the tables. At some point I will switch cartridges, put the Shilabe on the Raven and the Sussurro on the Kronos but for now I am extremely happy with both tables. I will say this; when you consider that the Kronos costs (at retail) approx. 30% more than the Raven, and that the Raven can handle up to four arms (whereas the Kronos can only handle one arm) it's hard to go wrong with the TW! It's a wonderful, top echelon, table for sure!

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Thanks Stickman. always good to hear from an owner when comparisons are being made. from your comments on the sound, the TW would be my preference.

StickMan451

You say you have the Raven ac-2. How is the TW configured. Which platter? Two motors? Any pictures.

I think the soundsmith is livelier (having heard the Madake, not Shilabe and a few soundsmiths like Hyperion, puoa, and strain gauge). So would like to know what happens after you swap. Yes the Kronos is definitely not forward/upfront and a bit laid back, but layered behind the speakers, whenever I have heard it. Never heard the TW properly so thanks for this.

StickMan: Any updates on your thoughts about these two fine TT now that you've had a chance to swap cartridges/arms?

My friend has the top of TW Acustic with 4 arms,i don't remember the name but he prefers Garrard 301( he bought plint from Artisan Fidelity ) and SP 10 MK III
He has all 3,he told me Garrard and SP 10 has,for him, real sound while TW has hifi sound,clean but don't give emotion like other 2

I don't listen these in his home

bonzo75 said:

Yes the Kronos is definitely not forward/upfront and a bit laid back, but layered behind the speakers, whenever I have heard it. Never heard the TW properly so thanks for this.

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With Opus on Kronos, Dean Martin stands about a meter behind my speakers. With Atlas SL on, his vocal is scaled down and move back a little more. The sonic presentation/positioning can also be manipulated with phono cable or power cables. From my experience switching between Siltech and Goebel, the latter upsizes the sound image so it appear closer comparing to Siltech.

Agreed that the Kronos is very very quiet. My friends who listen mostly digital changed their mind regarding background noise issue of vinyl after hearing the Kronos. Dream with Dean is an excellent album proving this. And yes the motor of Kronos is noisy at work comparing to other tts. This is the area I told Louis to improve, but he sidestepped and told me to listen to the sound from speakers

Kind regards,
Tang

Hi Tang,
do you have Goebel cable?
Which cable,how they sound and what is the difference with Siltech?

Thanks
Gianluigi

gian60 said:

Hi Tang,
do you have Goebel cable?
Which cable,how they sound and what is the difference with Siltech?

Thanks
Gianluigi

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Sorry for going off topic.

For Interconnect I tried in my system Siltech, Goebel and MIT...all top model. But I still cannot make final conclusion on Siltech.
Goebel Lacord is the best looking, best finish, best feel in your hand and easiest to bend in my opinion. The sound of Goebel is very dynamic with very very dark background. I think it is more dynamic than MIT and Siltech. The reason I dont keep it is I think it upsizes the sound and image size is bigger than what I think is real. Once the image get expanded, it loses resolutionand inner details.
The MIT gives me excellent resolution, inner details and soundstage seems closer to real to me. The tone is rich. I get incredible singer voice from MIT in my system. All friends say they hear best voice in my system. MIT doesnt give darkness background like Goebel.
Siltech is the one that I am puzzleing. I tried a double crown Siltech speaker cable and I pretty much know the character of Siltech. All my power cords are also Siltech. But the Siltech Tripple Crown I tried uncharacteristically lost the resolution and details I get from the lower model double crown or the MIT. Anything else is as good as the MIT. I actually extected the Tripple Crown to be better than my MIT but that wasnt the case. So I sent it back to my dealer. My dealer told me that the cable was brand new when he sent to me and I should listen agian. He did burned in the cable while I sent back. Right now its sitting in my room and I have not tried it yet.
About the tone of these cables, I think they all have natural tone.

To hang on to the topic of this thread just a little, I think if the Kronos has more torque like idler or direct drive, it could be the king of tts. Not that it lacks dynamic, but I would like its platter to spin with greater authority.

Best regards,
Tang

Thanks,
i asked because i have a MIT MA X REV 2 and i will try the Kuro of my friend and i have the possibility to try Goebel,i was very curious on Goebel