Confidentiality of Private messages

Gregadd · Feb 2, 2016

We don't have PM on the lawyer forum.. We see each other on a regular basis. One of the favorite things to do on our forum is to bitch about those(judges) in power. Outing another lawyer is grounds for immediate and permanent termination.

Johnny Vinyl · Feb 2, 2016

edorr said:
I'm not sure. This particular moderator did not go through my PMs (despite the offer), but he never mentioned whether or not he could in principle. In this specific instance (i.e. with member permission), I guess he could have asked the admin.

I'm a moderator on PS audio forum, and not a chance in hell I can see PMs.

It's the same where I help moderate. I'm not even sure if it's an option within the software to allow anyone other than a SysAdmin to view them.

amirm · Feb 2, 2016

Johnny Vinyl said:
It's the same where I help moderate. I'm not even sure if it's an option within the software to allow anyone other than a SysAdmin to view them.

Sysadmin (using our software) can *not* look up PMs either. You must have the login/password for the hosting site that contains the software and requisite knowledge to go and mine the database. Now in our case both Steve and I have that information too but it can be separate. So you are very correct in that regard as far as moderators are concerned.

PeterA · Feb 2, 2016

amirm said:
1. Currently no one in the admin/mod team has any idea or motivation to go and read anyone's PMs not addressed to us. They are stored in the database as mentioned just like posts. So as a practical matter, they are private to you guys.

2. As I have also explained, anyone can report your PMs to us. This is a standard feature of our software and exists in every implementation of it in thousands of forums. I have utilized that feature elsewhere to report threatening PMs for example. And I was encouraged to do so by said management.

3. While I have not checked, my assumption is that all of your PMs are unencrypted. That means that it is possible for the people who manage/run our software to read what is there as can of course law enforcement under any formal request to us to hand over our forum content.

4. Anyone can cut and paste your PM into another forum or email. Or even take a snapshot of the screen while viewing the PM. This means that even if we provided some kind of security, it will be an empty promise as the message can easily be captured.

5. We do not allow abusive posts whether in public or private. Same sanctions apply equally to both. We did not create this forum for people to go and hurt each other whether that communication is in private or public. So if your PM is reported, do not expect lenient treatment because you sent it in PM.

6. Many PMs have been reported in the past with or without the knowledge of the sender. In some cases we have taken action, in others not. But in every case we have seen them.

7. I have also seen PMs shared without the sender's permission in the context of backchanneling to members of the admin. Don't assume that the people you send PMs think they are bound by any sense of honor to not do so. Other motivations take precedent.

These are the facts as I can think of them this morning. Base your assumption of privacy of PMs on these. While I have not checked with my peers, I am confident they will attest to all of this so there is no division in the management team on these as far as I know.

Thank you for this clarification, Amir, but I still have a question. Recently, you publicly asked for my permission, in a WBF thread, to make public one or more of my PMs. I did not grant you permission to do so. Your request implied to me that you knew of the content of those PMs. So, if you did know the content, how is that possible, unless they were regarding the two posts which I reported to the management team? I suppose you could see those as a moderator, but still wanted my permission to make them public. Or were you referring to PMs between me and the other moderators which I had thought you could not see? I presume they were not PMs to other members, which you just wrote that you can not view.

Johnny Vinyl · Feb 2, 2016

Why is this such an issue? Has anyone's privacy been compromised?

amirm · Feb 2, 2016

Johnny Vinyl said:
Why is this such an issue? Has anyone's privacy been compromised?

Yes. I don't wear bow ties but as an experiment, I bought one to see if it enhances my good looks. Took a selfie and PMed it to someone and one day I wake up and see it on the web:

I want justice and want it now.

NorthStar · Feb 2, 2016

I'm going to open a Twitter account...

Kingsrule · Feb 2, 2016

PeterA said:
Thank you for this clarification, Amir, but I still have a question. Recently, you publicly asked for my permission, in a WBF thread, to make public one or more of my PMs. I did not grant you permission to do so. Your request implied to me that you knew of the content of those PMs. So, if you did know the content, how is that possible, unless they were regarding the two posts which I reported to the management team? I suppose you could see those as a moderator, but still wanted my permission to make them public. Or were you referring to PMs between me and the other moderators which I had thought you could not see? I presume they were not PMs to other members, which you just wrote that you can not view.

Amir

Answer the question....

Blizzard · Feb 2, 2016

Seems to be much more traffic on the forum ever since the PM crisis started.

Blizzard · Feb 2, 2016

Johnny Vinyl said:
Why is this such an issue? Has anyone's privacy been compromised?

The only ones who care are those who talk trash about others behind their backs. Why else would it really matter? This is an audio forum to discuss music, audio gear, and sound. Not somewhere you go to discuss your most intimate private personal matters.

Gregadd · Feb 3, 2016

yes Blizz we should just insult people in public like you.
Just kidding.
I think you can see why I find the notion that privacy only beleongs to the well behaved a little repugnat.

FrantzM · Feb 3, 2016

Plain and simple: Private Messages should remain private.

Once we start justifying the means to questionable ends , we are on a wrong path. I understand we're not living in a rosy , perfect and perfectly just world but we can try: Leave the darn private messages Private

PeterA · Feb 3, 2016

Gregadd said:
yes Blizz we should just insult people in public like you.
Just kidding.
I think you can see why I find the notion that privacy only beleongs to the well behaved a little repugnat.

The issue that I see is that Amir did publish a private message by posting it on a thread. His reasoning is that its content was insulting. He alone made this determination at his sole discretion. So, it seems that Amir will decide what he makes public, or at least he did in that instance. That was an interesting admission which says a lot. It is still unclear to me which private messages he has access to, despite the lengthy explanation in this thread.

It's not that big a deal, but its good to know what the rules are so that we can behave accordingly. Absent clarity, caution seems prudent. This is one thread that appears to be staying on topic.

amirm · Feb 3, 2016

PeterA said:
The issue that I see is that Amir did publish a private message by posting it on a thread. His reasoning is that its content was insulting. He alone made this determination at his sole discretion.

As does any member/person to whom you send a PM, email, text, vmail, etc. Put yourself in their shoes next time you send an offending message of this type and think how much you can rely on your assumption of privacy in such message. But this is my personal opinion and stance, separate from what the forum has as a policy. Don't confuse the two.

So, it seems that Amir will decide what he makes public, or at least he did in that instance. That was an interesting admission which says a lot. It is still unclear to me which private messages he has access to, despite the lengthy explanation in this thread.

I posted clear set of points outlining our stance on this topic. The question you asked was clearly answered there. Repeating it again, I have never attempted to read your PMs or any other members. And that certainly extends to members of the administration. I bolded this before and am bolding it again.

Absent clarity, caution seems prudent.

Clarity has been provided. And it is not caution that is prudent but rather, respectful, professional conduct following the forum terms of service.

This is one thread that appears to be staying on topic.

Yet another jab at the forum. You never get tired of this Peter, do you?

DonH50 · Feb 3, 2016

Trying to remember when I last saw a thread remain on topic. In the interest of not breaking that trend, I offer this:

We've gotten ~24" of snow the past couple of days, nary a snowplow in sight. Cleared a lane on our cul-de-sac with my snowthrower and a neighbor with a plow on his pickup made one track down the main road yesterday to get to the (unplowed) two-lane highway so my son could get home and we could get out. He made it in his little CR-V. This morning a big honkin' county plow appeared (something like this without the wing blade https://www.dot.nd.gov/divisions/maintenance/docs/plowtruck.pdf ) and got stuck trying to get up the hill one road down from our place. Blocked the road. Trash came by and tried to pull it out, no dice. Plow driver guns engine, spins tires, rocks back and forth a few times, then slides further down the hill and into the ditch. Unsolicited advice: When you're in a hole, stop digging. At least now the main road is a little more clear. He tried to move the truck around with the plow blade. Bad idea. Plow blade vs. 50 tons of plow truck equals broken blade, mount, etc. Another plow came along a little later and pulled it out. They both disappeared around the corner going the other way. Road out front still not plowed.

This comic relief brought to you by El Paso County snow crews. Thanks for your support.

Gregadd · Feb 3, 2016

Kingsrule said:
Amir

Answer the question....

There is a question pending...

spazmatron · Feb 3, 2016

The only issue here is the publication of pm messages by the recipients of the pm. Not management looking at our pm messages.
The wrong questions are being asked! The answer to the original question of this thread was answered more than once.

The thread it's self seems to of become a vehicle to apply subversive objections to a certain member.

There is nothing wrong with the pm system, other than our vulnerability to having our messages exposed by the person you sent it to. Of course this could extend to members publishing messages that have been forwarded to them.

This potential situation depends on our own judgement, it's not got much to do with management unless they have to moderate such activity.

So no one to question but ourselves!

rbbert · Feb 3, 2016

amirm said:
...Yet another jab at the forum. You never get tired of this Peter, do you?

Hey, he's still here isn't he?

And I think the real question should be, should a "private message" be quoted or copied and pasted into the open forum without the consent of all parties involved. Despite amir's protestations, that behavior will get you sanctioned at any number of forums, including the biggest audio forum. It seems to me that is the main reason for private messages at all: not that there is an expectation of complete privacy (there isn't and really can't be), but rather not to waste open forum space and energy on relatively "private" issues. Now that I've written that, on reflection it seems almost foolish considering the way a few members post in open forums here...

amirm · Feb 3, 2016

rbbert said:
And I think the real question should be, should a "private message" be quoted or copied and pasted into the open forum without the consent of all parties involved.

As I have said repeatedly, "should" is in the eye of the person receiving your email, text, PM, fax, letter sent by carrier pigeon, etc. We are not here to take away their right to expose deceitful, disrespectful, bullying, insulting messages by putting such edicts in place as to enable someone like yourself to engage in such conduct with reckless abandon.

Despite amir's protestations, that behavior will get you sanctioned at any number of forums, including the biggest audio forum.

You haven't shown a single forum in existence that would allow you to send insulting PMs to the site founder and do the same in public and live to tell about it. Go ahead and contact steve hoffman forward the kind of PM you wrote about me to him, and ask him his opinion.

It seems to me that is the main reason for private messages at all: not that there is an expectation of complete privacy (there isn't and really can't be), but rather not to waste open forum space and energy on relatively "private" issues. Now that I've written that, on reflection it seems almost foolish considering the way a few members post in open forums here...

Anyone who thinks they should repeatedly send insulting PMs to a site founder is not one that I listen to as far as what is foolish or not. Learn to be more professional and not engage in such conduct. I am not here to protect you in that regard. Or anyone else who thinks they should wake up in the morning and try to make someone upset and unhappy using our system that way.

rbbert · Feb 3, 2016

I haven't sent insulting or inappropriate PM's or emails to anyone. Period. This is the type of dialog which should remain private, IMO, but if you want to air WBF's dirty laundry, it's up to you. As you know, there is a ton of stuff about you going on "behind the scenes", and it involves just this sort of name calling and obnoxious behavior.

Confidentiality of Private messages

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Banned

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Banned

Member

VIP/Donor

Banned

Banned

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Banned

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert

WBF Founding Member

Banned

Well-Known Member

Banned

Well-Known Member

Similar threads