Best alternative: Preamp with built in DAC chip or Modern DAC

PeterA · Jan 27, 2016

I have been reading with interest the reports of the new NADAC in MadFloyd's system thread. The discussion which followed the reports suggested that the overall sound would be improved if the traditional preamp were removed from the system because it simply adds color to the sound. The argument is that modern DACs have volume controls built in and output stages that can drive amplifiers directly, so why not bypass or omit the traditional preamp from the play back chain, and simply use the modern DAC.?

A high quality traditional preamp has a very good volume control and switching capabilities, so if the system has one or two analog sources and a digital source, a preamp makes a lot of functional sense. It may also have very high quality parts, great build quality, and sound extremely transparent.

A modern DAC, even one as good as the NADAC, on the other hand, does not have analog inputs or switching capabilities. It may have a volume control and be able to drive an amp directly, but is its volume control as good, and are the build quality, parts selection and overall transparency at the same level as a stand alone top preamp?

My question is, would it be better to have a top solid state preamp from a company like Solution, Spectral, Dartzeel or Pass with a built in modular DAC chip for digital processing (which could be upgraded every year as technology changes), or a top quality modern DAC with volume control but no switching capability, like the NADAC and have to switch cables every time you want to change sources?

Which solution would sound better and be more functional and ultimately preferred?

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

PeterA said:
I have been reading with interest the reports of the new NADAC in MadFloyd's system thread. The discussion which followed the reports suggested that the overall sound would be improved if the tradition preamp were removed from the system because it simply adds color to the sound. The argument is that modern DACs have volume controls built in and output stages that can drive amplifiers directly, so why not bypass or omit the traditional preamp from the play back chain, and simply use the modern DAC.?

A high quality traditional preamp has a very good volume control and switching capabilities, so if the system has one or two analog sources and a digital source, a preamp makes a lot of functional sense. It may also have very high quality parts, great build quality, and sound extremely transparent.

A modern DAC, even one as good as the NADAC, on the other hand, does not have analog inputs or switching capabilities. It may have a volume control and be able to drive an amp directly, but is its volume control as good, and are the build quality, parts selection and overall transparency at the same level as a stand alone top preamp?

My question is, would it be better to have a top solid state preamp from a company like Solution, Spectral, Dartzeel or Pass with a built in modular DAC chip for digital processing (which could be upgraded every year as technology changes), or a top quality modern DAC with volume control but no switching capability, like the NADAC and have to switch cables every time you want to change sources?

Which solution would sound better and be more functional and ultimately preferred?

Now we have the same conversation 3 places

Here's 2 example's of the many preamp/DAC combo unit's out there today with analog inputs. Sometimes you need to look beyond 5-6 brand names to find a good product for your needs.

http://www.classeaudio.com/products/cp-800.php

There's also the NAD:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M12-Digital-Preamp-DAC

PeterA · Jan 27, 2016

Blizzard said:
Now we have the same conversation 3 places

I did not want to take Ian's thread way off topic, so I thought I would start a new thread about this. And the topic is more about the preamp so I thought it should be in the amp/preamp forum rather than the digital/Blizzard forum. Does the NADAC have the same quality parts inside, build quality, and volume control as something like a $30K traditional preamp? I'm more interested in ultimate sound quality and functionality than I am in value. The guy with a turntable can't bypass his preamp and use only the NADAC unless he physically switches the cables back and forth.

I might be willing to do such a thing (I adjust VTA for LPs for instance) to get ultimate sound quality, but most sane people want the functionality of a preamp for the inputs and switching capabilities.

JackD201 · Jan 27, 2016

For people that are digital only, going directly from DAC with volume control direct to the amps is a very good alternative. Of course as always it depends on a few things. My first consideration would be gain structure. You could have very good output devices but if the output is too low to get the amps running optimally then the situation is compromised. My second consideration would be the implementation of the volume control. If for instance you are in the rare situation where for example your amp happens to have low input sensitivity (needs less input voltage to reach full power) and the DAC output is attenuated by shaving bits, you can run into situations where the shaving becomes audible as word length drops below 16 bits. In this instance you may want to go with passive analog attenuation and choose the compromises of these instead. Its a lesser of two evils scenario.

For those who are also into analog it branches into two parts. First is having an all analog signal path and second is to have an analog input with ADC. ADC is not all bad. There are many examples where they are very transparent and will not detract from analog enjoyment. Still post AD conversion you are still bound by conditions above (shaving et al) as this will go through the DAC sections later. Bottom line is if you want to use the DAC for your vinyl just be sure that you like the DAC first and foremost.

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

PeterA said:
I did not want to take Ian's thread way off topic, so I thought I would start a new thread about this. And the topic is more about the preamp so I thought it should be in the amp/preamp forum rather than the digital/Blizzard forum. Does the NADAC have the same quality parts inside, build quality, and volume control as something like a $30K traditional preamp? I'm more interested in ultimate sound quality and functionality than I am in value. The guy with a turntable can't bypass his preamp and use only the NADAC unless he physically switches the cables back and forth.

I might be willing to do such a thing (I adjust VTA for LPs for instance) to get ultimate sound quality, but most sane people want the functionality of a preamp for the inputs and switching capabilities.

The NADAC may not have an output stage on par with a $30000 stand alone preamp. But putting a $30000 stand alone preamp after it, won't replace the parts that the signal is already passing through in the NADAC. Your audio system is only as good as the weakest link. Merging built the output stage of the NADAC specifically to drive amps direct. If you don't like how it sounds, best to get a different DAC. You can't polish a turd with a preamp. In some cases where the DAC has a weak output stage this may be the case, but why buy a DAC like that this day and age?

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

JackD201 said:
For people that are digital only, going directly from DAC with volume control direct to the amps is a very good alternative. Of course as always it depends on a few things. My first consideration would be gain structure. You could have very good output devices but if the output is too low to get the amps running optimally then the situation is compromised. My second consideration would be the implementation of the volume control. If for instance you are in the rare situation where for example your amp happens to have low input sensitivity (needs less input voltage to reach full power) and the DAC output is attenuated by shaving bits, you can run into situations where the shaving becomes audible as word length drops below 16 bits. In this instance you may want to go with passive analog attenuation and choose the compromises of these instead. Its a lesser of two evils scenario.

For those who are also into analog it branches into two parts. First is having an all analog signal path and second is to have an analog input with ADC. ADC is not all bad. There are many examples where they are very transparent and will not detract from analog enjoyment. Still post AD conversion you are still bound by conditions above (shaving et al) as this will go through the DAC sections later. Bottom line is if you want to use the DAC for your vinyl just be sure that you like the DAC first and foremost.

Pretty much correct. However most of the caveats you mentioned are rare when it comes to modern DAC's. For 1, the 32 bit volume controls that have been around for 8 years inside of DAC chips, don't degrade quality at all. Unless the DAC has a high noise floor. Because the data is turned down, but the noise stays the same. Analog volume controls turn down both the noise and the data. But that's a none issue with most SS gear these days as noise floors better than -120Db are very common. If you have a chipless DAC, or DAC that doesn't have a 32 bit volume control inside the chip, you better make sure it uses a good volume control. If not, simply don't buy it. Support the manufacturer who does use a good volume control.

And secondly, it's getting rare to find a DAC that doesn't have an output stage robust enough to drive any input impedance around. I'm not saying there isn't preamps that are better, but the preamp won't make the parts in the DAC any better that's for sure.

JackD201 · Jan 27, 2016

I said voltage not impedance. There are many amps that need over 2v to reach full power. I also qualified all of my statements pretty clearly. Rare as situations might be, nobody wants to find himself with his pants down should he find himself in such situations.

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

JackD201 said:
I said voltage not impedance. There are many amps that need over 2v to reach full power. I also qualified all of my statements pretty clearly. Rare as situations might be, nobody wants to find himself with his pants down should he find himself in such situations.

Yes I agree, but the standard range of voltage output levels you'll find from the balanced outs on most modern DAC's is 4-5V. The NADAC puts out 6.1V. PS Audio directstream 5.3V

2V is usually what you will get from single ended outputs, and I agree not enough for the job with most amps.

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

PeterA said:
A modern DAC, even one as good as the NADAC, on the other hand, does not have analog inputs or switching capabilities.

Oh yeah I forgot, DAC's do have switching capabilities. They are just switching capabilities between digital inputs, not analog. But this day and age you only really need analog inputs for a Phono stage. Maybe R2R if you are among the few who have one. So if you're one of the 95% who are digital only, no reason a stand alone preamp.

MadFloyd · Jan 27, 2016

Well I'm more curious than ever to try the NADAC without a preamp. I've tried many DACs direct to amps and all of them sounded like crap so far so I really do not have high expectations...

I will report back...

dan31 · Jan 27, 2016

I think the Mola Mola pre amp/ dac is a serious component if your looking for this type of integration.

amirm · Jan 27, 2016

I have only done one comparison which was a Berkeley DAC with built-in volume control alone and then routed through a Mark Levinson Pre-amp. Subjectively and speaking ad-hoc, the addition of the pre-amp sounded better. We only had the pre-amp for a short time so did not have the time to do a proper comparison.

A little off-topic story. We had a company come and give us some speakers to evaluate. We hooked them up to our Mark Levinson 500 watt amplifier. All was fine 'till the output stage of the Berkeley self-destructed, sending direct DC into the amp. That blew up the woofer in the speaker something crazy. I have never seen a pre-amp fail this way although many are DC coupled so in theory could do the same.

PeterA · Jan 27, 2016

Blizzard said:
The NADAC may not have an output stage on par with a $30000 stand alone preamp. But putting a $30000 stand alone preamp after it, won't replace the parts that the signal is already passing through in the NADAC. Your audio system is only as good as the weakest link. Merging built the output stage of the NADAC specifically to drive amps direct. If you don't like how it sounds, best to get a different DAC. You can't polish a turd with a preamp. In some cases where the DAC has a weak output stage this may be the case, but why buy a DAC like that this day and age?

This is precisely my point, Blizzard. Why compromise the rest of the system if the parts and build quality of the DAC are not up to the level of the rest of the electronics in the system? Instead of getting another DAC as you suggest, why not add the digital chip for reading the quad DSD signal to the inside of a very high end transparent traditional preamp plus a digital input and do whatever takes place in the DAC inside the pre instead. This way you get the superior volume control, the superior output stage, and presumably a more transparent product.

Now, admittedly, I have no idea what is involved with inserting the necessary digital stuff inside the pre amp, but that is my point about implementation. There might be an issue with noise if the digital and analog are in the same box, but that would involve shielding or something I suppose. I am clearly no engineer. Just curious about a potentially better solution to the DAC/PRE unit.

Imagine a spectacularly transparent preamp like the newest Spectral with quad DSD capability but with no extra box, cable etc. And when digital quad DSD format is changed, just swap out the module for something current.

BlueFox · Jan 27, 2016

Of course it can be done, and probably makes sense for many people. On the other hand, it would greatly increase the price versus the DACless preamp. Additionally it will limit your future upgrade path since you cannot upgrade the pre without also upgrading the DAC, or vice versa. However, an integrated amp with a file player and DAC could be a very nice piece of gear in a few years. Just think of the money saved on power cords and interconnects.

c1ferrari · Jan 27, 2016

Blizzard said:
Here's 2 example's of the many preamp/DAC combo unit's out there today with analog inputs. Sometimes you need to look beyond 5-6 brand names to find a good product for your needs.

http://www.classeaudio.com/products/cp-800.php

There's also the NAD:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M12-Digital-Preamp-DAC

This is a fine alternative, IME:

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m905/m905.htm

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

MadFloyd said:
Well I'm more curious than ever to try the NADAC without a preamp. I've tried many DACs direct to amps and all of them sounded like crap so far so I really do not have high expectations...

I will report back...

Well the Pass will add fairy dust no doubt. But can a filter in HQplayer be more effective? How about try this, redbook from Jriver through the Pass XS preamp, vs Dac direct to amps with HQplayer. Then see what made a bigger difference, the $38000 preamp, or the $100 software

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

amirm said:
I have only done one comparison which was a Berkeley DAC with built-in volume control alone and then routed through a Mark Levinson Pre-amp. Subjectively and speaking ad-hoc, the addition of the pre-amp sounded better. We only had the pre-amp for a short time so did not have the time to do a proper comparison.

A little off-topic story. We had a company come and give us some speakers to evaluate. We hooked them up to our Mark Levinson 500 watt amplifier. All was fine 'till the output stage of the Berkeley self-destructed, sending direct DC into the amp. That blew up the woofer in the speaker something crazy. I have never seen a pre-amp fail this way although many are DC coupled so in theory could do the same.

The Alpha Reference? How was the volume control implemented?

amirm · Jan 27, 2016

Blizzard said:
The Alpha Reference? How was the volume control implemented?

No, the regular one before the reference came out. Volume control is digital.

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

PeterA said:
This is precisely my point, Blizzard. Why compromise the rest of the system if the parts and build quality of the DAC are not up to the level of the rest of the electronics in the system? Instead of getting another DAC as you suggest, why not add the digital chip for reading the quad DSD signal to the inside of a very high end transparent traditional preamp plus a digital input and do whatever takes place in the DAC inside the pre instead. This way you get the superior volume control, the superior output stage, and presumably a more transparent product.

Now, admittedly, I have no idea what is involved with inserting the necessary digital stuff inside the pre amp, but that is my point about implementation. There might be an issue with noise if the digital and analog are in the same box, but that would involve shielding or something I suppose. I am clearly no engineer. Just curious about a potentially better solution to the DAC/PRE unit.

Imagine a spectacularly transparent preamp like the newest Spectral with quad DSD capability but with no extra box, cable etc. And when digital quad DSD format is changed, just swap out the module for something current.

Great point. Why wouldn't you? Ask your favourite manufacturer that question. Because in my mind that's a no brainer.

Blizzard · Jan 27, 2016

amirm said:
No, the regular one before the reference came out. Volume control is digital.

Yes but all digital volume controls aren't implemented the same. Same goes with analog. That would never happen with my amps even if a preamp/DAC did blow up because the protection circuity would kick in instantly.

Best alternative: Preamp with built in DAC chip or Modern DAC

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