Ultimate active setup

Keith_W · Jan 18, 2016

Hi Mike, your thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18648-The-best-way-possible-to-build-an-active-system&highlight=acourate from a few months ago has set me off on a journey to update my system with a new digital crossover. I thought I would start a thread, describe my current system, and see what you think.

Current System
Three way active horns with a two subwoofers. Currently set up like this:

SACD player --> Preamp --> Active crossover --> one amp channel for each driver

The active crossover I am using is a Marchand XM-44. I also have a DEQX, all it is doing at the moment is providing room correction for the sub. I find the DEQX to be unsatisfactory in my system, as it does not have enough drive to power the inputs of the power amp (!!), even with the dip switches set for maximum output (an undocumented feature).

Aim
My new setup will look something like this:

SACD player (now as transport) -- (digital) --> PC --> Multichannel DAC --> one amp channel for each driver

As you can see, I am contemplating two purchases - (1) a custom built Windows PC, and (2) a multichannel DAC. I have the following aims:

- the PC needs to be powerful enough to run Acourate, Roon, and HQPlayer simultaneously. The PC will now function as a digital crossover, using Acourate's crossover generation function. It also needs to be powerful enough to do all these calculations at Quad DSD resolution.
- I would like to retain the ability to play my large collection of SACD's, although I don't see how I would be able to. The SACD player (Playback MPS-5), like all SACD players, has proprietary encryption for DSD out.
- the Multichannel DAC will replace both my existing DAC and preamp, so the DAC has to be sufficiently high quality (i.e. equal to or superior to the MPS-5), and the preamp output section MUST have enough output voltage to drive my power amps satisfactorily.

Questions
1. In your other thread, you suggested a Merging Hapi or NADAC. I have since found out that the NADAC benefits from a preamp. Furthermore, I am not keen on the learning curve involved with computer networking which is apparently required to get the NADAC to run properly - so this rules it out. Are you aware of any high quality multichannel DAC's that would fulfil my requirements (i.e. DAC equal or superior to the Playback MPS-5, and proper preamp output)?

2. How do you get 8 channels of digital signal from the PC to the multi-channel DAC? Will I need a sound card with 8 channels of digital out? Do you know of any?

3. Do you know of a way to get this setup to play SACD discs? Or is the only way to experience DSD to download hi-res files from a service like Tidal?

4. Is it possible to get Acourate to "pre-convolve", or getting HQplayer to "pre-upsample" the audio files to cut down on on-the-fly processing? (Therefore generating larger files, but saving CPU power, generate less heat, less risk of dropout, etc).

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
Hi Mike, your thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18648-The-best-way-possible-to-build-an-active-system&highlight=acourate from a few months ago has set me off on a journey to update my system with a new digital crossover. I thought I would start a thread, describe my current system, and see what you think.

Current System
Three way active horns with a two subwoofers. Currently set up like this:

SACD player --> Preamp --> Active crossover --> one amp channel for each driver

The active crossover I am using is a Marchand XM-44. I also have a DEQX, all it is doing at the moment is providing room correction for the sub. I find the DEQX to be unsatisfactory in my system, as it does not have enough drive to power the inputs of the power amp (!!), even with the dip switches set for maximum output (an undocumented feature).

Aim
My new setup will look something like this:

SACD player (now as transport) -- (digital) --> PC --> Multichannel DAC --> one amp channel for each driver

As you can see, I am contemplating two purchases - (1) a custom built Windows PC, and (2) a multichannel DAC. I have the following aims:

- the PC needs to be powerful enough to run Acourate, Roon, and HQPlayer simultaneously. The PC will now function as a digital crossover, using Acourate's crossover generation function. It also needs to be powerful enough to do all these calculations at Quad DSD resolution.
- I would like to retain the ability to play my large collection of SACD's, although I don't see how I would be able to. The SACD player (Playback MPS-5), like all SACD players, has proprietary encryption for DSD out.
- the Multichannel DAC will replace both my existing DAC and preamp, so the DAC has to be sufficiently high quality (i.e. equal to or superior to the MPS-5), and the preamp output section MUST have enough output voltage to drive my power amps satisfactorily.

Questions
1. In your other thread, you suggested a Merging Hapi or NADAC. I have since found out that the NADAC benefits from a preamp. Furthermore, I am not keen on the learning curve involved with computer networking which is apparently required to get the NADAC to run properly - so this rules it out. Are you aware of any high quality multichannel DAC's that would fulfil my requirements (i.e. DAC equal or superior to the Playback MPS-5, and proper preamp output)?

2. How do you get 8 channels of digital signal from the PC to the multi-channel DAC? Will I need a sound card with 8 channels of digital out? Do you know of any?

3. Do you know of a way to get this setup to play SACD discs? Or is the only way to experience DSD to download hi-res files from a service like Tidal?

4. Is it possible to get Acourate to "pre-convolve", or getting HQplayer to "pre-upsample" the audio files to cut down on on-the-fly processing? (Therefore generating larger files, but saving CPU power, generate less heat, less risk of dropout, etc).

Sounds good. But I wouldn't be concerned with the NADAC or HAPI needing a preamp, or the networking being an issue. You likely got that information from the NADAC thread from someone who bought the wrong networking gear, didn't set things up right, and had a hissy fit due to his incompetence, and decided to trash the product.

It's a 2 minute task setting up the network with the NADAC or HAPI, if you do it right.

As far as requiring a preamp, the HAPi has a pro level 24DBu output level, which is much higher than the NADAC. But even the NADAC should have no problem driving amps direct unless your amp has very weak input stages.

You will have to rip your SACD's to ISO files to play them on the system.

I still recommend the Merging HAPI for this system. You won't find a better multichannel DAC. And you won't find a better interface than Ravenna.

I don't know of any other way of making convolution work with HQplayer, without using the convolution engine in HQplayer.

The easiest way is to just use Jriver, but then you don't get as good of sound, or DSD compatibility. No way around the powerhouse computer going the HQplayer route.

Keith_W · Jan 18, 2016

Hi Mike, can I ask you if you have tried a Merging NADAC or Hapi in your setup? I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that other person's opinion, I have known him for a number of years. He does say a few things which are of concern to me. I am prepared to ignore the network/computer issues he has been having, because he is a Mac person and I am probably more knowledgeable in Windows and networking than he is. However, two people have now said that the NADAC benefits from a preamp - two people whom I respect, and whose opinions I would be foolhardy to ignore. Given my own issues with the DEQX's inability to drive my power amps, this is not an issue I am willing to put aside. And yes - an 8 channel preamp is a problem.

If I had to settle for "second best", I would give up the crossover functionality of Acourate and rely only on its convolving. I had a VERY convincing demonstration in my own home a few days ago, with a VERY humble Raspberry Pi running Linux doing the convolving. Giving up the crossover functionality of Acourate means that I don't need to purchase an 8 channel DAC. In fact, any decent 2 channel DAC will do.

May I ask how to rip an SACD into an ISO?

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
Hi Mike, can I ask you if you have tried a Merging NADAC or Hapi in your setup? I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that other person's opinion, I have known him for a number of years. He does say a few things which are of concern to me. I am prepared to ignore the network/computer issues he has been having, because he is a Mac person and I am probably more knowledgeable in Windows and networking than he is. However, two people have now said that the NADAC benefits from a preamp - two people whom I respect, and whose opinions I would be foolhardy to ignore. Given my own issues with the DEQX's inability to drive my power amps, this is not an issue I am willing to put aside. And yes - an 8 channel preamp is a problem.

If I had to settle for "second best", I would give up the crossover functionality of Acourate and rely only on its convolving. I had a VERY convincing demonstration in my own home a few days ago, with a VERY humble Raspberry Pi running Linux doing the convolving. Giving up the crossover functionality of Acourate means that I don't need to purchase an 8 channel DAC. In fact, any decent 2 channel DAC will do.

May I ask how to rip an SACD into an ISO?

I was the one who tried to help him set it up. He bought the wrong hardware, and wouldn't even tell me the method he used to try to get it going. Look for yourself on the NADAC thread. He was trying to setup a advanced dual lan fibre optic setup. I gave him a parts list on what to buy, but he decided to buy a different fibre LAN card instead and whined that it wouldn't work. Then wouldn't even say what he actually bought. It was probably incompatible. Not a NADAC issue at all.

I haven't used one myself yet, but have talked to many who have. Including another guy on the NADAC thread (kingsrule) who said it took longer to type the post than to get it work, and that was even with fiber optics.

Anyways, as I said before, the HAPI has a more powerful output stage than the NADAC. What were these guys using for amps? One of my pet peeves is when people make these claims, and have absolutely no idea how the input stages of their amps are designed. So then it's like a blanket statement that everyone thinks as gospel in all situations. Usually what the real issue is they are accustomed to the additional coloration's their known preamp adds to the chain. So it's only perceived benefit due to them being used to the sound of the pre. Most modern DAC's are designed to not require a preamp, their output stages are preamps. If putting 2 preamps in the chain is better than 1, along with the extra set of interconnects, why not daisy chain 4-5 of them together

Here's what you should be reading from the NADAC faqs to determine this:

"In terms of feeding power amps directly from the MERGING+NADAC. What would be the lower limit of impedance it can drive?
Merging has tested it to work (at full specs) down to 300 Ohms (with Audio Precision) but it can even drive loads with a much lower impedance than that. We've had reports that it can even drive a zero Ohm load (equivalent to a short circuit) when set to +12 dBu (Low) and within about 1 dB of full scale output when set to 18 dBu (High)."

"What is the MERGING+NADAC's Output impedance?
The MERGING+NADAC-MC8's Output impedance is of 90 Ohms (Differential), equivalent to 45 Ohms (Single-ended) in 8 channel mode and about 53 Ohms (Differential), equivalent to 26.5 Ohms (Single-ended) in Stereo mode.
The MERGING+NADAC-ST2's Output impedance is always of 90 Ohms (Differential), equivalent to 45 Ohms (Single-ended)."

And good luck finding an 8 channel preamp anyways.

If you give up the crossover functionality in acourate, what will you use for an xover?

There's some threads here on how to do the SACD Iso ripping. I think in Bruce B's subforum.

Keith_W · Jan 18, 2016

Thanks again, Mike. I should point out to you that the fact that I am on your forum asking you questions implies that I value your opinion. Otherwise, I wouldn't ask for it.

Re: power amps. I have owned my amps for years, and I very much like the way they sound - so they aren't going anywhere. I have tried them with all manner of preamplification - although the specs suggests they should be pretty benign (input impedance 100k Ohm, 1V sensitivity) - my experience suggests they are more difficult to drive than other amps. I am more than prepared to try a NADAC in my system, but not if it costs me thousands of dollars to do it. Perhaps I should talk to the dealer about whether it would be possible to obtain one on loan.

Re: 8 channel preamp. If I had to, I could get one made. I know people who design and build preamps - I live in Melbourne, the hifi capital of Australia! Home of SGR, Elektra, AKSA, Black Art Audio, Redgum, and others. (Unfortunately, said Merging dealer isn't located in Melbourne!). I would much rather not have to go through this though.

Re: give up crossover functionality. As I mentioned, I already have a Marchand crossover. My system is already running fully active.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
Thanks again, Mike. I should point out to you that the fact that I am on your forum asking you questions implies that I value your opinion. Otherwise, I wouldn't ask for it.

Re: power amps. I have owned my amps for years, and I very much like the way they sound - so they aren't going anywhere. I have tried them with all manner of preamplification - although the specs suggests they should be pretty benign (input impedance 100k Ohm, 1V sensitivity) - my experience suggests they are more difficult to drive than other amps. I am more than prepared to try a NADAC in my system, but not if it costs me thousands of dollars to do it. Perhaps I should talk to the dealer about whether it would be possible to obtain one on loan.

Re: 8 channel preamp. If I had to, I could get one made. I know people who design and build preamps - I live in Melbourne, the hifi capital of Australia! Home of SGR, Elektra, AKSA, Black Art Audio, Redgum, and others. (Unfortunately, said Merging dealer isn't located in Melbourne!). I would much rather not have to go through this though.

Re: give up crossover functionality. As I mentioned, I already have a Marchand crossover. My system is already running fully active.

No problem, just keep in mind the NADAC is almost triple the price of the HAPI, and the 8 channel performance will pretty much be the same. The NADAC only has an edge with 2 channel because of the ability to sum all 8 channels into 2. They both use the same DAC boards in the case, and I don't think you'll need the headphone amp.

Kal Rubinson · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
Questions
1. In your other thread, you suggested a Merging Hapi or NADAC. I have since found out that the NADAC benefits from a preamp. Furthermore, I am not keen on the learning curve involved with computer networking which is apparently required to get the NADAC to run properly - so this rules it out. Are you aware of any high quality multichannel DAC's that would fulfil my requirements (i.e. DAC equal or superior to the Playback MPS-5, and proper preamp output)?

exaSound e28. USB input with proprietary ASIO driver. With its accessory PlayPoint, ethernet, too.

2. How do you get 8 channels of digital signal from the PC to the multi-channel DAC? Will I need a sound card with 8 channels of digital out? Do you know of any?

See above.

3. Do you know of a way to get this setup to play SACD discs? Or is the only way to experience DSD to download hi-res files from a service like Tidal?

I rip them and play the files.

The only good 8 channel preamp on the market today is the Parasound P7 but the Bryston SP3 has a very good 8channel input/output.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Kal Rubinson said:
exaSound e28. USB input with proprietary ASIO driver. With its accessory PlayPoint, ethernet, too.

See above.

I rip them and play the files.

The only good 8 channel preamp on the market today is the Parasound P7 but the Bryston SP3 has a very good 8channel input/output.

Yes alternative, and Astrotoy is selling his because he replaced it with a NADAC. So if not sold yet, there's a good deal on a used one. Otherwise I would just get the Hapi as it's almost the same price and better. Cheaper if you combine with the exa with the playpoint.

amirm · Jan 18, 2016

Keith, if you don't rip your SACDs you would have to put an analog to digital converter to take them into the PC. You really want to avoid that both to cost and generational loss. So he says, not having ripped his own SACDs yet.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

amirm said:
Keith, if you don't rip your SACDs you would have to put an analog to digital converter to take them into the PC. You really want to avoid that both to cost and generational loss. So he says, not having ripped his own SACDs yet.

Yes and moving forward say no to the obsolete little shiny frisbee's, and yes to DSD downloads

bibo01 · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
...
- the PC needs to be powerful enough to run Acourate, Roon, and HQPlayer simultaneously. The PC will now function as a digital crossover, using Acourate's crossover generation function. It also needs to be powerful enough to do all these calculations at Quad DSD resolution.
...

If your PC has to convolve 8 channels and at the same time upconvert everything to to DSD128, this is VERY resource intensive and a PC has to be planned for this particular purpose. A simple, bare i7-4790 is not enough. I have tried to upconvert 8ch with a Hapi. A fast Nvidia Quadro and a fast Skylake CPU would be advisable.
What you need to bare in mind with HQPlayer convolution/conversion is that the amount of time and resources needed for processing a stereo track have to be multiplied by 4 times for 8ch output.

Keith_W · Jan 18, 2016

I think I have come up with a solution, since I can't think of any multi-channel DAC's that would be superior to the MPS-5 I already own. I just realized that I don't need to send all audio channels through the same multi-channel DAC. I could use a higher quality DAC for my midrange and top end, and use a cheaper multi-channel DAC for bass. I think i'll do that - since I already own a high quality DAC suitable for midrange and top end, I could save a lot of money by buying a cheap multi-channel DAC. I don't know why this didn't occur to me before!

Kal, thanks for your recommendation for the Exasound E28. I am glad that Amir is here, because he can help with bandwidth calculations

I am concerned that the USB interface of the E28 may not be sufficient to handle 8 channels of quad DSD. Opinions?

(edit) thank you bibo01 for your contribution. That is something else to consider! Hmm. Is it possible to upconvert the files in advance? I know this will eat up HDD space, but HDD's are very cheap. It will at least save on CPU power.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
I think I have come up with a solution, since I can't think of any multi-channel DAC's that would be superior to the MPS-5 I already own. I just realized that I don't need to send all audio channels through the same multi-channel DAC. I could use a higher quality DAC for my midrange and top end, and use a cheaper multi-channel DAC for bass. I think i'll do that - since I already own a high quality DAC suitable for midrange and top end, I could save a lot of money by buying a cheap multi-channel DAC. I don't know why this didn't occur to me before!

Kal, thanks for your recommendation for the Exasound E28. I am glad that Amir is here, because he can help with bandwidth calculations I am concerned that the USB interface of the E28 may not be sufficient to handle 8 channels of quad DSD. Opinions?

(edit) thank you bibo01 for your contribution. That is something else to consider! Hmm. Is it possible to upconvert the files in advance? I know this will eat up HDD space, but HDD's are very cheap. It will at least save on CPU power.

Maybe you should get Madfloyd's opinion of the NADAC not being superior to the Playback MPS-5. Since he just replaced his MPS-5 with a NADAC. Big NADAC vs Kronos turntable and Pass labs XS phono preamp showdown this weekend

I'm pretty sure BruceB has both as well. The Horus anyways which is the same thing as the Hapi, only more card slots for extra channels.

And as I said earlier, for 8 channels, the Hapi should be the equal in quality.

But what you are thinking using 2 different DAC's is a bad idea as they won't have master clock sync, and no way to hook them up simultaneously without using a multichannel AES/EBU card like the RME-HDSPe. Then you're limited to 24/192 PCM.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_aes.php

If your DAC's have word clock in, and you're ok with 24/192 max resolution, the RME-HDSPe is an option that will work.

Anyways the Exasound E28 (which is inferior to the Hapi), can handle 8 channels of quad DSD. You can ask Astrotoy if the E28 he replaced with the NADAC was better.

For $2k, an excellent choice. You won't do better:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19191-For-Sale-Exasound-E28-Mark-I-Multichannel-DAC

You can offline convert, but not if you want sound as good a hqplayer. There's no cheap way to do this, either do it right, or go PCM only. And depends on what you're talking about to offline convert. 8 channels of room correction, xovers and to quad DSD? Each album would be like 60-100 gb's in quad DSD, even if it was possible, which it isn't.

bibo01 · Jan 18, 2016

You cannot do offline upsampling with HQPlayer.

Kal Rubinson · Jan 18, 2016

Keith_W said:
I think I have come up with a solution, since I can't think of any multi-channel DAC's that would be superior to the MPS-5 I already own. I just realized that I don't need to send all audio channels through the same multi-channel DAC. I could use a higher quality DAC for my midrange and top end, and use a cheaper multi-channel DAC for bass. I think i'll do that - since I already own a high quality DAC suitable for midrange and top end, I could save a lot of money by buying a cheap multi-channel DAC. I don't know why this didn't occur to me before!

How will you do this? Multiple S/PDIFs? Also, the DACs need to be synched and that, probably, means that they need a common clock.

Kal, thanks for your recommendation for the Exasound E28. I am glad that Amir is here, because he can help with bandwidth calculations I am concerned that the USB interface of the E28 may not be sufficient to handle 8 channels of quad DSD. Opinions?

Why is there a concern about the USB interface?

thank you bibo01 for your contribution. That is something else to consider! Hmm. Is it possible to upconvert the files in advance? I know this will eat up HDD space, but HDD's are very cheap. It will at least save on CPU power.

I cannot make any pretense of computer expertise but my i7 runs 6channels at any resolution (up to DSD256, PCM up to 192, DXD) with bass management and room correction (except for DSD) via USB to the e28 as well as occasional upsampling without any burps................................... and simultaneously feeding all of the preceding to the NADAC via Ravenna so I can A/B them.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

Kal Rubinson said:
cannot make any pretense of computer expertise but my i7 runs 6channels at any resolution (up to DSD256, PCM up to 192, DXD) with bass management and room correction (except for DSD) via USB to the e28 as well as occasional upsampling without any burps................................... and simultaneously feeding all of the preceding to the NADAC via Ravenna so I can A/B them.

You're using HQplayer and acourate to do this? Without doing the HQplayer DSD multibit conversion, it takes nothing for processor power to do it. You can easily do it with an I3 NUC using 1-10% CPU power using something like Jriver. But certainly won't sound as good, and limited to 24/192 PCM.

Kal Rubinson · Jan 18, 2016

Blizzard said:
You're using HQplayer and acourate to do this? Without doing the HQplayer DSD multibit conversion, it takes nothing for processor power to do it. You can easily do it with an I3 NUC using 1-10% CPU power using something like Jriver. But certainly won't sound as good, and limited to 24/192 PCM.

JRiver and I rarely do any conversions.

bibo01 · Jan 18, 2016

Kal Rubinson said:
JRiver and I rarely do any conversions.

It is a very different ball game.
Except for DSD, I used to do what you are doing with JRiver + VST plugin six years ago.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

bibo01 said:
It is a very different ball game.
Except for DSD, I used to do what you are doing with JRiver + VST plugin six years ago.

I started my experiments that way too. Great option for those on a budget, and not looking for the best sound.

bibo01 · Jan 18, 2016

Blizzard said:
I started my experiments that way too. Great option for those on a budget, and not looking for the best sound.

Well...Thuneau's Frequency Allocator was pretty good for a 5.1 system with active bi-amplification of Magnepan 3.6, center, backL/R + AudioKinesis Swarm 2 (4 subs system)

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