Horch House PROJECT R2R consumer tape machine

Ron Resnick · May 14, 2016

Everyone with whom I have discussed this question, including audiophile owners of various decks, Fred Thal and Greg Beron, as well as our own WBF tape experts, feel strongly that, holding external repro electronics constant, different transports sound different.

Mike Lavigne · May 14, 2016

FrantzM said:
Philip

Thanks for the reply. I can understand the different sound when electronics are involced. A modified RS-1500 will sound different from an unmodified one and with special pre-amp I can understand the variation in sound. No! I am asking a different question or perhaps re-phrasing my earlier question:
Tap A is a Studer A 820 with Kayamichi Heads (a fictitious head) and a Bottlehead Pre
Tape B is a Technics RS-1500 with the same Kayamichi Heads and Bottlehead Pre
Tape C is a Revox B77 with the same Kayamichi Heads and Bottlehead Pre

Will these sound different?

As for paying $600 for an album (and having to wait an eternity for it to arrive) , I respect those who do and understand their search. Not for me. I am most certainly out of the tap game.

I never owned multiple 'level' machines with identical heads and output electronics. Ki Choi might be the ultimate authority on that question as I would suppose he has run across that at one time or another.

but I have owned a couple A-820's, an ATR-102, a dPv modified RS-1520, and a stock RS-1500 at the same time. the RS-1500 would compare directly to the Revox B77.....in stock form they are both similar level.

there is a huge difference between the stock RS-1500 (a very pristine example) and the dPv modified RS-1520, the mods on that to the heads, tape path and output electronics push it closer to the big boy A-820. a stock 'pro-sumer' or 'broadcast' level deck does greatly benefit from tweaking. 'broadcast level' is another step higher than 'pro-sumer' but the lines are a bit blurred between those 2 levels.

and the answer to your question; if they all have the same heads and output electronics is that they will definitely sound different.....how significant are the transports? it's analogous to multiple level turntables with the same cartridge and phono stage. the turntable and tonearm have huge influences on the ultimate sound......if relatively greater than tape transports (I owned 5 tt's with different arms and switched cartridges when I owned those 5 tape decks).

for a few years there I did lots of performance comparisons.

and your choice to include the A-820 and not just 'master level recorder' does set the bar very high. OTOH I would say to tell the difference between the top level master level transports you would need some time. they are all quite good. but like turntables there are differences.

dminches · May 14, 2016

Philip O Hanlon said:
The most common mod on a RS-1500 is to take the output from the heads and run them to an outboard tube preamp, such as Bottlehead or Doshi.

Which is exactly what I have (Doshi). I even had John French put on a Nortronics playback head.

FrantzM · May 14, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
I never owned multiple 'level' machines with identical heads and output electronics. Ki Choi might be the ultimate authority on that question as I would suppose he has run across that at one time or another.

but I have owned a couple A-820's, an ATR-102, a dPv modified RS-1520, and a stock RS-1500 at the same time. the RS-1500 would compare directly to the Revox B77.....in stock form they are both similar level. there are other 'pro-sumer' decks that are higher level in stock form and come closer to 'master level'.

there is a huge difference between the stock RS-1500 (a very pristine example) and the dPv modified RS-1520, the mods on that to the heads, tape path and output electronics push it closer to the big boy A-820. a stock 'pro-sumer' broadcast level deck does greatly benefit from tweaking.

and the answer to your question; if they all have the same heads and output electronics is that they will definitely sound different.....how significant are the transports? it's analogous to multiple level turntables with the same cartridge and phono stage. the turntable and tonearm have huge influences on the ultimate sound......if relatively greater than tape transports (I owned 5 tt's with different arms and switched cartridges when I owned those 5 tape decks).

for a few years there I did lots of performance comparisons.

and your choice to include the A-820 and not just 'master level recorder' does set the bar very high. OTOH I would say to tell the difference between the top level master level transports you would need some time. they are all quite good. but like turntables there are differences.

I have mentioned earlier, I am inclined to understand why different TTs would would sound so different, by their very nature: They extracts vibrations from a medium and have to find ways to separate those useful needle vibrations from those of TT itself (bearing noise, airborne, arms friction, etc), airborne and floor-borne. With tapes not so much since they don't rely on vibration as much rather than a tape running in front of a head and making sure that the tapes doesn't move too much and especially run at a precise and accurate speed. In my view, the heads make and associated electronics make up most of the sound of the deck. A 810/820 etc are accurate machines but so is a technics RS-1500.. It is very much so. the RS-1500 has a very well designed tape path so ...
THe thing is I am not sure not too many people have conducted such an experience. We tend to latch on certain things and they become the def-facto standards. I am not sure on my end and on that I could be soooo wrong but again I don;t see why when everything else is equal why tape decks would sound different.

andromedaaudio · May 14, 2016

I own a A 80 and a B62 which have the same amplification cards , i also switched them out by putting the A 80 ( CCIR or NAB )cards in my B 62 and vice versa ( my cards have all been updated and checked recently by an electrical engineer)
They very much sound different and yes i am a skeptic i think

, the A 80 sounds laid back and the B62 more punchier livelier .
The head wear is not exactly the same so that might be a factor .
I think that mechanics have a great part in overall r2r sound and i m curious what a modern all out assault will bring in that part.
Not sure the 4-5K horch is an all out assault but decent entry level would be great off course

Mike Lavigne · May 14, 2016

FrantzM said:
I have mentioned earlier, I am inclined to understand why different TTs would would sound so different, by their very nature: They extracts vibrations from a medium and have to find ways to separate those useful needle vibrations from those of TT itself (bearing noise, airborne, arms friction, etc), airborne and floor-borne. With tapes not so much since they don't rely on vibration as much rather than a tape running in front of a head and making sure that the tapes doesn't move too much and especially run at a precise and accurate speed. In my view, the heads make and associated electronics make up most of the sound of the deck. A 810/820 etc are accurate machines but so is a technics RS-1500.. It is very much so. the RS-1500 has a very well designed tape path so ...
THe thing is I am not sure not too many people have conducted such an experience. We tend to latch on certain things and they become the def-facto standards. I am not sure on my end and on that I could be soooo wrong but again I don;t see why when everything else is equal why tape decks would sound different.

go back and investigate the various changes that the Tape Project would do to the stock RS-1500 to optimize it. they made changes to the tape path, the heads, and, of course, the output electronics.

compare that to a stock RS-1500. then compare the Tape Project mods to the more involved dPv modded RS-1520.....another step up. and I can tell you that the A-820 is a significant step higher even stock. the heads and output electronics in the dPv modded RS-1520 are equal to the heads and output electronics on the A-820.

the question is not whether transports make a performance difference. the question is whether that difference is important enough to justify the expense for you.

FrantzM · May 14, 2016

Mike

I will let it float. SO far only one person has spoken of having heard to two different transports with exact same pick-up components. THey seem to sound very slimilar and that person admits that the tape path is more worn on one machine than another.

We often would like to believe that we are able to perform 4 tweaks at once and be able to discern the contribution of each to the overall sound. Often at show reports you would see people talking about the performance of a TT in an entirely unknown system. I respect my fellow audiophiles but know very well such is beyond the ability of a mere mortal. Same when the Tape Projects change a lot of things ina Tape Deck and of course it will sound different from stock.

Thus my still unansered question:
Same HEads, Same Electronics but Different but good deck Decks? Thus different sound? Allow me some skepticism.

c1ferrari · May 14, 2016

Franz,

The manner in which the media, tape, travels across the head is a HUGE variable in performance.

astrotoy · May 14, 2016

FrantzM said:
Mike

Thus my still unansered question:
Same HEads, Same Electronics but Different but good deck Decks? Thus different sound? Allow me some skepticism.

I should be able to give you some feedback in a few weeks. Right now I have a Bottlehead modified Technics 1520 with Flux magnetics extended range heads and the Bottlehead Prepro. I will be getting my Ampex ATR-102 with Flux magnetics extended range heads and a Doshi prepro. I should be able to play both and switch the Doshi and BH prepros between machines, so I can compare playback with the same type of heads (they won't be the same heads - don't think that is possible) and the same prepro, but different transports. My friend Paul Stubblebine says that the transport contributes about 1/2 of the total sound quality, and they use ATR-100 series for all their mastering and copying for the Tape Project. However, Opus3 uses a Technics 1500 series for their copying.

Larry

microstrip · May 14, 2016

FrantzM said:
Philip

Thanks for the reply. I can understand the different sound when electronics are involced. A modified RS-1500 will sound different from an unmodified one and with special pre-amp I can understand the variation in sound. No! I am asking a different question or perhaps re-phrasing my earlier question:
Tap A is a Studer A 820 with Kayamichi Heads (a fictitious head) and a Bottlehead Pre
Tape B is a Technics RS-1500 with the same Kayamichi Heads and Bottlehead Pre
Tape C is a Revox B77 with the same Kayamichi Heads and Bottlehead Pre

Will these sound different?

As for paying $600 for an album (and having to wait an eternity for it to arrive) , I respect those who do and understand their search. Not for me. I am most certainly out of the tap game.

Yes, they will sound different. And knowledgeable people can show it to you just with measurements.

I can separate my A80 from a Revox A700 and a B77 just analyzing the components of the wow and flutter - for details how please see this old post: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14129-Desert-island-R2R-1-4-quot-2-track-master-player&p=261034&viewfull=1#post261034
Dale Manquen created a great page http://www.manquen.net/manquendotnet/audio/ with all this information, including data about scape flutter. Unfortunately there is no data about your future Technics RS-1500 ...

spiritofmusic · May 14, 2016

So, can we debate further the choice of butterfly heads? Is this a major no no compared to NAB?

Tapetech · May 15, 2016

This may be a moot point. Since the HH deck will be modular in design (with interchangable headblock), I think it's very likely that they will offer both head options (NAB and DIN).

HH also stated they would at some point post a survey as to want features were desired on the deck, so that is the opportunity to vote for NAB heads as an option.

Perhaps you could even order the deck without a play head and send the headblock off to JRF for a Flux Magnetics NAB head install. The head would need to match the Revox head in terms of inductance, but Flux Magnetics can deal with that.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2016

Ok, now I'd like to ask will the HH have tape amp built in, or will an outboard device like King Cello or Doshi be needed?

Tapetech · May 15, 2016

It will have an inboard play amp. And it will likely be on a user-accessible plug-in card due to the claim by HH that is will be a modular deck. Aftermarket companies could sell their own "better" plug-in cards for the "tweaker" crowd.

And possible that the owner will be able to upgrade to record and balanced in/out just by purchasing the needed parts (boards and headblock) and plugging them in.

spiritofmusic · May 15, 2016

Thanx Tapetech, sounding more and more promising...

tunes · May 15, 2016

A modular design is how the HH deck will be viable IMO. Too few current potential customers with differing interests/needs/budgets for a deck. I wish them well and congratulate them (in advance) for sticking their neck out there to test the market.

spiritofmusic · May 20, 2016

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/new-revox-details-emerge#jjgLGMoFSRmjmjSj.97

Lovely! I can feel an analog rush come on. Nurse, pass the cold sponge!

astrotoy · May 20, 2016

I think Mikey means it is based on the Studer B67 (not B676). In any case, if the transport is at the same level as the better prosumer machines, and the electronics are up to the level of the current prepros, it will be a great bargain. Most of the prepros (BH, King-Cello, Doshi) cost as much or more than the $4500 asking price of the entire playback machine. As Volker Lange stated, he is looking to expand the market for his prerecorded tapes. That would be also be great for Tape Project, UltraAnalogue, Yarlung, Jonathan Horwich and all the other producers of 15ips 2 track tapes. Of course, once you are hooked, it is the tapes that become the addiction.

Larry

Bruce B · May 20, 2016

If they think their business model is based on inkjet cartridges, don't cartridges have a high profit margin? Dubbing tapes one to one is NOT going to be a high profit margin. I've run the numbers because I wanted to get into releasing tape. I found that I'd break even in about 5 years!!!

astrotoy · May 20, 2016

Bruce B said:
If they think their business model is based on inkjet cartridges, don't cartridges have a high profit margin? Dubbing tapes one to one is NOT going to be a high profit margin. I've run the numbers because I wanted to get into releasing tape. I found that I'd break even in about 5 years!!!

Agreed. I think Volker may be looking at enough volume to have a bank of slave machines to do copying at a larger scale, say 10 machines (especially if he can use the record version of his new machine as the slave - so both capital costs and labor are minimized).

Larry

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