"What The Specs Don’t Tell You… And Why"

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
This was, by far, the best presentation I've encountered at RMAF. Be patient because there's something for everyone here. This is one of the rare cases where the objectivist and subjectivist can see eye-to-eye. It was even better being there because it was very easy to hear the various types of distortion demonstrated. I'm not so sure how well it comes across on youtube.

Of course, Amir sat front row and asked several questions at the end (He's a "gunner" in law school parlance). :D Enjoy!

[video]https://youtu.be/2V6YN-mshmY[/video]
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
did you chase him up stairs with your microsoft inspired ideas for idiot proof user interface?
I did actually :). Went there and they said the key guy was out to lunch so I could not meet with him.

another expert that wont be coming on WBF:D
Funny you should say this. I am on their mailing list and had signed up for their local seminar on acoustics and DAC measurements. Was running late so parked in this expensive lot and paid $25. Run upstairs and to my surprise there is no one there but the one guy that I had met in their booth!!! He told me the presenter had gotten sick and so they had cancelled the training. I go home and see that he had sent the cancellation just half hour before the session was to start so of course I and I am sure many others had not seen it. I reminded the guy that we had met at RMAF and i could see his silent reaction, "oh no, that guy!" :D
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
394
2
0
Crap, I didn't know the had gotten me on video! Now I have nowhere to hide....

Was that you toward the very end in the Q&A? Oh, my gosh. You are actually a human being, not just the voice of God in an online forum.

Hey, good questions. I respect your outlook.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
How much for the Cliff Notes?

Tim
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,515
1,773
1,850
Metro DC
So is he an objectivist or...?
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
nice info Dallas, thanks man. BTW, are you shown in the show audience? I mean Amir gets the lions share of screen time..
Yes. I'm the guy standing in the isle at the back. It's hard to see me because I'm so far back.

It was cool to hear these distortions in real time.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,515
1,773
1,850
Metro DC
I think he passed the buck. Our products are capable of telling the truth.
They also can be manipulated to suit your purpose.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,515
1,773
1,850
Metro DC
I am sorry
I thought these are comercial grade products, not for the audiophile.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
I also think many manufacturers don't have good test equipment. I am sure AP attends these shows mainly to sell gear to manufacturers. It's funny because manufacturers think they go to these shows only to market their stuff. But smart companies like AP are targeting manufacturers at these shows too.

I was going to ask a question when I was there about their competition and why this gear is so expensive. To me, it seems like it could be produced at a much lower cost without sacrificing quality. I would think the most costly parts in the box are the ADC and associated hardware. ADCs have greatly improved and costs have come down in the last ten years. Some think prism's gear is equal to AP but a little less expensive. I don't know. I bet there will be more competition at the lower price points in the future. It's clear to me that AP is currently the leader in this field.

thats what i was getting at, create awareness to get the audiophiles asking questions then the dealer/distibutor would be then looking to buy these things to provide the answers the net result being a new market the the company. if that results in time to some units for end users then i would not be surprised.

fair enough but will prob lead to more bs than less as dallas points out.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
well maybe the top brands have a price pact shock horror;)
i just dont see the manufacturers voluntearing to give more complet and relivent measurements so the next logical and a lot easier step would be to get the other areas in the market place to offer the measurements to help give them selfs(hifi distributor and dealers) advantadge at point of sale.

just a thought of the future not statement of fact on the here and now.

That's right. But if more hobbyists, dealers and/or distributors had this gear and could use it, then there would be much more pressure on manufacturers to do the same.

A good example of what I'm talking about is the Uptone Regen. Amir is a dealer and also a very competent engineer who has some fine AP test gear to test the analog domain. In that case, the manufacturer (we came to find out later) had no such test gear. Amir's (and BE's) tests publicly revealed some deficiencies in Uptone's engineering. The same thing could be done with a lot of gear. If a dealer or distributor was testing products and could privately show the good, bad and ugly to their customers, it would give the dealer/distributor much greater credibility. In any business, credibility is THE most important asset.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
I also think many manufacturers don't have good test equipment. I am sure AP attends these shows mainly to sell gear to manufacturers. It's funny because manufacturers think they go to these shows only to market their stuff. But smart companies like AP are targeting manufacturers at these shows too.
Exactly.

I was going to ask a question when I was there about their competition and why this gear is so expensive. To me, it seems like it could be produced at a much lower cost without sacrificing quality. I would think the most costly parts in the box are the ADC and associated hardware. ADCs have greatly improved and costs have come down in the last ten years. Some think prism's gear is equal to AP but a little less expensive. I don't know. I bet there will be more competition at the lower price points in the future. It's clear to me that AP is currently the leader in this field.
They have an expensive direct sales channel. And have the best reputation of any company in this business. Both of these translate into high prices.

That said, competition is getting strong from person just using a sound card to lower cost products that have the same A/D converters but not the fancy analog front-end like dPrism. dPrism equipment sells for $8K or lower.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Like any tool, the wielder is just as important or even more so than the tool itself. Look what someone like Bascom King does with an AP as an example.

That said there's a lot in this presentation that is telling. Basically that regardless of what side of the O/S divide you are on, the fact is there is a lot more to investigate.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
Like any tool, the wielder is just as important or even more so than the tool itself. Look what someone like Bascom King does with an AP as an example.

That said there's a lot in this presentation that is telling. Basically that regardless of what side of the O/S divide you are on, the fact is there is a lot more to investigate.

That's exactly why I thought, at the time, (and still do) that this presentation can help bridge the gap between the two camps. It certainly opened my eyes to how useless some specs really are and how easy it is for manufacturers to manipulate specs in their favor. In addition, it's easier for me to understand why I can still really enjoy listening to systems which don't sport the best specs. In particular, the important difference between cross-over distortion and clipping is very enlightening. It's clear to me there's still much to be learned about distortion. This means that those who claim to hear distortions which may not be readily apparent from basic testing should NOT be dismissed.

Having said all of that, I still believe that ALL real distortion phenomena can be measured. It's just a question of finding the proper measurement. That's the disconnect between myself and some others. For me, there's really no point in talking to someone who says they can hear a distortion but refuses to accept that what they are hearing can be measured. I hear what they are saying, but I won't ever understand them. ;)
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
I think the first step is respect for measurements. Many audiophiles don't believe in it at all. Most of the people out there reviewing equipment don't measure, and don't seem to believe in it themselves. And in some post here someone said something to the effect that many manufacturers don't have good measuring equipment? If that's the case, I wouldn't trust them to deliver a good, consistent product. This is the main reason why, when a thread here asked for excellent fidelity in an affordable system, I went straight to companies like Benchmark and Harman. Didn't even have to think about it too hard; I know they mean to build the highest fidelity they can at each price point they offer, and I know they have the tools, expertise and resources to meet that goal. There is a lot of that on the pro side, even in relatively small companies.

It's not out of reach. It's that the market isn't asking for it.

Tim
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,676
4,466
963
Greater Boston
I think the first step is respect for measurements. Many audiophiles don't believe in it at all. Most of the people out there reviewing equipment don't measure, and don't seem to believe in it themselves. And in some post here someone said something to the effect that many manufacturers don't have good measuring equipment? If that's the case, I wouldn't trust them to deliver a good, consistent product. This is the main reason why, when a thread here asked for excellent fidelity in an affordable system, I went straight to companies like Benchmark and Harman. Didn't even have to think about it too hard; I know they mean to build the highest fidelity they can at each price point they offer, and I know they have the tools, expertise and resources to meet that goal. There is a lot of that on the pro side, even in relatively small companies.

It's not out of reach. It's that the market isn't asking for it.

Tim

On the other hand, companies like dCS (Data Conversion Systems) find measurements extremely important in their development of digital components. Here is a paper that lists important measurements and their pitfalls:

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Measurements-in-Digital-Audio1.pdf

The paper describes that they also have designed their own testing equipment, and states:

By having full control over the software and hardware of the test equipment, we can very rapidly modify the kinds of test we do, and we can guarantee the quality of the results we get.

The dCS Vivaldi provides the best digital playback that I have heard to date.

dCS have roots in pro audio.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
On the other hand, companies like dCS (Data Conversion Systems) find measurements extremely important in their development of digital components. Here is a paper that lists important measurements and their pitfalls:

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Measurements-in-Digital-Audio1.pdf

The paper describes that they also have designed their own testing equipment, and states:

By having full control over the software and hardware of the test equipment, we can very rapidly modify the kinds of test we do, and we can guarantee the quality of the results we get.

The dCS Vivaldi provides the best digital playback that I have heard to date.

dCS have roots in pro audio.

Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, even on the high end side.

Tim
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing