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Thread: "What The Specs Don’t Tell You… And Why"

  1. #11
    [WBF Founding Member] Gregadd's Avatar
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    I am sorry
    I thought these are comercial grade products, not for the audiophile.
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  2. #12
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregadd View Post
    I am sorry
    I thought these are comercial grade products, not for the audiophile.
    If I were a distributor or dealer, I would have one of these. It would be good bullshit for (some) customers.
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  3. #13
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    I also think many manufacturers don't have good test equipment. I am sure AP attends these shows mainly to sell gear to manufacturers. It's funny because manufacturers think they go to these shows only to market their stuff. But smart companies like AP are targeting manufacturers at these shows too.

    I was going to ask a question when I was there about their competition and why this gear is so expensive. To me, it seems like it could be produced at a much lower cost without sacrificing quality. I would think the most costly parts in the box are the ADC and associated hardware. ADCs have greatly improved and costs have come down in the last ten years. Some think prism's gear is equal to AP but a little less expensive. I don't know. I bet there will be more competition at the lower price points in the future. It's clear to me that AP is currently the leader in this field.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazmatron View Post
    thats what i was getting at, create awareness to get the audiophiles asking questions then the dealer/distibutor would be then looking to buy these things to provide the answers the net result being a new market the the company. if that results in time to some units for end users then i would not be surprised.

    fair enough but will prob lead to more bs than less as dallas points out.
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  4. #14
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spazmatron View Post
    well maybe the top brands have a price pact shock horror
    i just dont see the manufacturers voluntearing to give more complet and relivent measurements so the next logical and a lot easier step would be to get the other areas in the market place to offer the measurements to help give them selfs(hifi distributor and dealers) advantadge at point of sale.

    just a thought of the future not statement of fact on the here and now.
    That's right. But if more hobbyists, dealers and/or distributors had this gear and could use it, then there would be much more pressure on manufacturers to do the same.

    A good example of what I'm talking about is the Uptone Regen. Amir is a dealer and also a very competent engineer who has some fine AP test gear to test the analog domain. In that case, the manufacturer (we came to find out later) had no such test gear. Amir's (and BE's) tests publicly revealed some deficiencies in Uptone's engineering. The same thing could be done with a lot of gear. If a dealer or distributor was testing products and could privately show the good, bad and ugly to their customers, it would give the dealer/distributor much greater credibility. In any business, credibility is THE most important asset.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    I also think many manufacturers don't have good test equipment. I am sure AP attends these shows mainly to sell gear to manufacturers. It's funny because manufacturers think they go to these shows only to market their stuff. But smart companies like AP are targeting manufacturers at these shows too.
    Exactly.

    I was going to ask a question when I was there about their competition and why this gear is so expensive. To me, it seems like it could be produced at a much lower cost without sacrificing quality. I would think the most costly parts in the box are the ADC and associated hardware. ADCs have greatly improved and costs have come down in the last ten years. Some think prism's gear is equal to AP but a little less expensive. I don't know. I bet there will be more competition at the lower price points in the future. It's clear to me that AP is currently the leader in this field.
    They have an expensive direct sales channel. And have the best reputation of any company in this business. Both of these translate into high prices.

    That said, competition is getting strong from person just using a sound card to lower cost products that have the same A/D converters but not the fancy analog front-end like dPrism. dPrism equipment sells for $8K or lower.

  6. #16
    [WBF Founding Member] Addicted to Best! JackD201's Avatar
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    Like any tool, the wielder is just as important or even more so than the tool itself. Look what someone like Bascom King does with an AP as an example.

    That said there's a lot in this presentation that is telling. Basically that regardless of what side of the O/S divide you are on, the fact is there is a lot more to investigate.
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  7. #17
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackD201 View Post
    Like any tool, the wielder is just as important or even more so than the tool itself. Look what someone like Bascom King does with an AP as an example.

    That said there's a lot in this presentation that is telling. Basically that regardless of what side of the O/S divide you are on, the fact is there is a lot more to investigate.
    That's exactly why I thought, at the time, (and still do) that this presentation can help bridge the gap between the two camps. It certainly opened my eyes to how useless some specs really are and how easy it is for manufacturers to manipulate specs in their favor. In addition, it's easier for me to understand why I can still really enjoy listening to systems which don't sport the best specs. In particular, the important difference between cross-over distortion and clipping is very enlightening. It's clear to me there's still much to be learned about distortion. This means that those who claim to hear distortions which may not be readily apparent from basic testing should NOT be dismissed.

    Having said all of that, I still believe that ALL real distortion phenomena can be measured. It's just a question of finding the proper measurement. That's the disconnect between myself and some others. For me, there's really no point in talking to someone who says they can hear a distortion but refuses to accept that what they are hearing can be measured. I hear what they are saying, but I won't ever understand them.
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  8. #18
    I think the first step is respect for measurements. Many audiophiles don't believe in it at all. Most of the people out there reviewing equipment don't measure, and don't seem to believe in it themselves. And in some post here someone said something to the effect that many manufacturers don't have good measuring equipment? If that's the case, I wouldn't trust them to deliver a good, consistent product. This is the main reason why, when a thread here asked for excellent fidelity in an affordable system, I went straight to companies like Benchmark and Harman. Didn't even have to think about it too hard; I know they mean to build the highest fidelity they can at each price point they offer, and I know they have the tools, expertise and resources to meet that goal. There is a lot of that on the pro side, even in relatively small companies.

    It's not out of reach. It's that the market isn't asking for it.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    I think the first step is respect for measurements. Many audiophiles don't believe in it at all. Most of the people out there reviewing equipment don't measure, and don't seem to believe in it themselves. And in some post here someone said something to the effect that many manufacturers don't have good measuring equipment? If that's the case, I wouldn't trust them to deliver a good, consistent product. This is the main reason why, when a thread here asked for excellent fidelity in an affordable system, I went straight to companies like Benchmark and Harman. Didn't even have to think about it too hard; I know they mean to build the highest fidelity they can at each price point they offer, and I know they have the tools, expertise and resources to meet that goal. There is a lot of that on the pro side, even in relatively small companies.

    It's not out of reach. It's that the market isn't asking for it.

    Tim
    On the other hand, companies like dCS (Data Conversion Systems) find measurements extremely important in their development of digital components. Here is a paper that lists important measurements and their pitfalls:

    http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/u...tal-Audio1.pdf

    The paper describes that they also have designed their own testing equipment, and states:

    By having full control over the software and hardware of the test equipment, we can very rapidly modify the kinds of test we do, and we can guarantee the quality of the results we get.

    The dCS Vivaldi provides the best digital playback that I have heard to date.

    dCS have roots in pro audio.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    On the other hand, companies like dCS (Data Conversion Systems) find measurements extremely important in their development of digital components. Here is a paper that lists important measurements and their pitfalls:

    http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/u...tal-Audio1.pdf

    The paper describes that they also have designed their own testing equipment, and states:

    By having full control over the software and hardware of the test equipment, we can very rapidly modify the kinds of test we do, and we can guarantee the quality of the results we get.

    The dCS Vivaldi provides the best digital playback that I have heard to date.

    dCS have roots in pro audio.
    Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, even on the high end side.

    Tim
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

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