System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

PeterA said:
It seems possible that they made both a digital and tape recording simultaneously at that time, but feel that the new quad DSD sounds better coming from the tape master rather than the digital from that time, as you suggest. So perhaps there is some truth to both.

Incidentally, I just got an email from another former WBF member who thinks this might be the case based on what Yarlung and Mike Fremer have written, though it is ambiguous.

It's an interesting question: if they were both done from the same master tape, then the comparison is very direct. If they were done from different sources, then they are each once removed from the mic feed and additional differences are introduced to the chain. At least this is how I understand it. Happy to be corrected.

Well they use up to 30 microphones to capture the live feed and send to the R2R to record. I highly doubt the same capture was sent to a digital recorder. Why wouldn't he have just said this the first time if he already knew that the Quad DSD was better and this is the one that's going to be used for the comparison anyways? It goes from :

"The digital release was not made from the analog tape. Just as the quad DSD was not made from the analog master."

To this:

"It seems possible that they made both a digital and tape recording simultaneously at that time,but feel that the new quad DSD sounds better coming from the tape master rather than the digital from that time"

in a matter of an hour, from a guy who knew all along the quad DSD version sounded better? It went from not existing, to sounding better. Did he download the new version really quick and have a critical listening session in the last hour?

Yes this is correct and is the very reason I recommend specifically that Yarlung records recordings should be used for the vinyl/quad DSD comparison.

PeterA · Jan 18, 2016

Blizzard said:
Well they use up to 30 microphones to capture the live feed and send to the R2R to record. I highly doubt the same capture was sent to a digital recorder. Why wouldn't he have just said this the first time if he already knew that the Quad DSD was better and this is the one that's going to be used for the comparison anyways? It goes from :

"The digital release was not made from the analog tape. Just as the quad DSD was not made from the analog master."

To this:

"It seems possible that they made both a digital and tape recording simultaneously at that time,but feel that the new quad DSD sounds better coming from the tape master rather than the digital from that time"

in a matter of an hour, from a guy who knew all along the quad DSD version sounded better? It went from not existing, to sounding better. Did he download the new version really quick and have a critical listening session in the last hour?

Yes this is correct and is the very reason I recommend specifically that Yarlung records recordings should be used for the vinyl/quad DSD comparison.

Blizzard, it did not go from the one to the other. I am getting emails from two different former WBF members with information, simultaneously. Sorry to be vague but they have not given me permission to use their names. So, one wrote me the first proposition and the other wrote me the second. Yes, they are different, but not from the same source. You may not have any reason to believe me, but there it is. I don't know the answer. The first guy is in contact with Bob Attiyeh right now and exchanging emails and trying to get some information to share. I told him that I would need express permission to post the names and information, or he could do it directly. Perhaps I could PM you separately, as this discussion is now way off topic, though extremely interesting in its implications for this comparison.

Let's hold off any more discussion, until we know more. What is the point of going back and forth? You and I are not going to solve this without contacting the principals involved.

Blizzard · Jan 18, 2016

PeterA said:
Blizzard, it did not go from the one to the other. I am getting emails from two different former WBF members with information, simultaneously. Sorry to be vague but they have not given me permission to use their names. So, one wrote me the first proposition and the other wrote me the second. Yes, they are different, but not from the same source. You may not have any reason to believe me, but there it is. I don't know the answer. The first guy is in contact with Bob Attiyeh right now and exchanging emails and trying to get some information to share. I told him that I would need express permission to post the names and information, or he could do it directly. Perhaps I could PM you separately, as this discussion is now way off topic, though extremely interesting in its implications for this comparison.

Let's hold off any more discussion, until we know more. What is the point of going back and forth? You and I are not going to solve this without contacting the principals involved.

I did a bit more research and discovered the vinyl "mastering engineers" were Steve Hoffman and Bob Attiyeh, but the "Vinyl mastering" was done by Bernie Grundman.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...pm-lp-string-trios-by-penderecki-and-barabba/

http://www.elusivedisc.com/The-Janaki-String-Trio-Debut-180g-45rpm-LP/productinfo/YARLP9642-45/

So I guess it's not truly apples to apples, because there was additional "mastering" (although minimal as possible) involved in the vinyl, that wasn't involved with the DSD transfer. The Quad DSD is likely closer to the R2R, than the vinyl.

We have some interesting information on this topic straight from Bob himself over here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18719-Quad-dsd-on-the-Golden-Gate/page4

Sadly he cut the session short once the real bomb was dropped from from Spirit. But nobody ever want's to claim one format as being superior outright, if they are selling all of the formats. Especially when they are through different vendors. It would likely upset HDtracks if they read the DSD was a clear winner on a public forum etc.

Yes straying off topic a bit, but still interesting as next year's DAC for the $10K system will have the 9038pro, and will likely outperform the NADAC. And if the NADAC can outperform, or match a $100K plus vinyl setup, then we are really in for a treat

Gregadd · Feb 1, 2016

I like what Bill Parcells said you are what your record says you are. If your record is 2-6 then you are a 2-6 team. This might be a good $10k system

Blizzard · Feb 1, 2016

Gregadd said:
I like what Bill Parcells said you are what your record says you are. If your record is 2-6 then you are a 2-6 team. This might be a good $10k system

It would be a good $30k system as well

joeinid · Feb 5, 2016

I took a chance and ordered the Nord One Hypex Amplifiers by iQ Speakers.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!product-page/onbar/c9c31e89-cc60-19a6-a18e-4612342e130b

I hope to see them by the end of next week. Thanks Blizzard.

I know there are more expensive alternatives out there. This will be fun diversion for me.

I had a Devialet and liked it but craved more body, tone and warmth. I ordered the Sparkos op amp for the Nord One, hoping it will help.

Blizzard · Feb 9, 2016

joeinid said:
I took a chance and ordered the Nord One Hypex Amplifiers by iQ Speakers.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!product-page/onbar/c9c31e89-cc60-19a6-a18e-4612342e130b

I hope to see them by the end of next week. Thanks Blizzard.

I know there are more expensive alternatives out there. This will be fun diversion for me.

I had a Devialet and liked it but craved more body, tone and warmth. I ordered the Sparkos op amp for the Nord One, hoping it will help.

Right on Joe. There's really no reason that these amps can't be the best amps you ever own. All you have to do is change out the opamps, and you can get any sound profile you desire. The Sparko's are more geared towards a warm presentation. But in no way mask details at all. Your source gear plays a huge role. If you have really warm source gear, the Sparko's may be a tad too warm. But all depends on personal taste in the end. The ultimate thing to do is to try about 5 sets of different discrete opamps in them. Give each set a good week or 2 of listening. You will find the perfect fit for your tastes for sure.

joeinid · Feb 9, 2016

Thank you so much for the tips and information. UPS has my amps and with any luck, I should see them on Thursday. I usually err on the side of warmth, so I think the Sparkos could be great.

That's a great idea though, add additional op amps for a different flavor. One post I saw where the user preferred the standard op amp based on his musical taste. I'll see how I like the Sparkos and maybe order the additional ones should I feel the need.

Thanks again!

ps. Welcome back!

Blizzard said:
Right on Joe. There's really no reason that these amps can't be the best amps you ever heard. All you have to do is change out the opamps, and you can get any sound profile you desire. The Sparko's are more geared towards a warm presentation. But in no way mask details at all. Your source gear plays a huge role. If you have really warm source gear, the Sparko's may be a tad too warm. But all depends on personal taste in the end. The ultimate thing to do is to try about 5 sets of different discrete opamps in them. Give each set a good week or 2 of listening. You will find the perfect fit for your tastes for sure.

Blizzard · Feb 9, 2016

joeinid said:
Thank you so much for the tips and information. UPS has my amps and with any luck, I should see them on Thursday. I usually err on the side of warmth, so I think the Sparkos could be great.

That's a great idea though, add additional op amps for a different flavor. One post I saw where the user preferred the standard op amp based on his musical taste. I'll see how I like the Sparkos and maybe order the additional ones should I feel the need.

Thanks again!

ps. Welcome back!

Perfect! Colin from Nord is sending me some of his input buffer boards to test. I have a whole pile of discrete opamps here so I'll let you know if they all play nice with his board. My favourite are the Sonic imagery's, but when I was experimenting with them on a modded stock Hypex buffer board (which uses basically the same circuit that the Nord one up buffer board uses) I had to implement some additional modifications for the Sonic's to play nice. I'm also not sure if he has enough clearance between the balanced input connector and the rather large footprint of the sonic's. I will soon see

Thanks for the welcome

joeinid · Feb 10, 2016

I've been tracking the amps and I think I may be able to pick them up today (Wed) if UPS and customs cooperates. Updates to follow.....

Blizzard · Feb 10, 2016

joeinid said:
I've been tracking the amps and I think I may be able to pick them up today (Wed) if UPS and customs cooperates. Updates to follow.....

Excellent!

joeinid · Feb 10, 2016

Blizzard said:
Excellent!

What can I expect as far as break in time for these amps? They will be my first foray into Class D/Hypex amps.

Blizzard · Feb 10, 2016

joeinid said:
What can I expect as far as break in time for these amps? They will be my first foray into Class D/Hypex amps.

The amp class D output stages themselves don't need much, although they sound best when warmed up for a couple hours. The Discrete opamps input buffers need at minimum 100 hours. I would leave it running around the clock for a week or 2 at first with music on random or repeat at low volume before making any serious impressions. Don't judge the amp by first impressions.

joeinid · Feb 10, 2016

Understood. So far, I have a big grin on my face. Thank you for the recommendation, definitely sounds better than they should considering the price. If they smooth out just a little, holy cow, I will be ecstatic!

Blizzard said:
The amp class D output stages themselves don't need much, although they sound best when warmed up for a couple hours. The Discrete opamps input buffers need at minimum 100 hours. I would leave it running around the clock for a week or 2 at first with music on random or repeat at low volume before making any serious impressions. Don't judge the amp by first impressions.

Blizzard · Feb 10, 2016

joeinid said:
Understood. So far, I have a big grin on my face. Thank you for the recommendation, definitely sounds better than they should considering the price. If they smooth out just a little, holy cow, I will be ecstatic!

Oh you are already listening to them? That was pretty fast shipping. What were your previous amps?

Never mind. I see in your sig. Well those are some pretty serious amps to compare to, so I can't want to hear your comparisons after burn in

joeinid · Feb 10, 2016

They arrived a little while ago. So far I am very happy. Nothing has beaten my ART monos yet. Summer is coming and these put out virtually no heat. Nice!

Blizzard said:
Oh you are already listening to them? That was pretty fast shipping. What were your previous amps?

Never mind. I see in your sig. Well those are some pretty serious amps to compare to, so I can't want to hear your comparisons after burn in

nc42acc · Feb 10, 2016

Hey Mike what are your thoughts on the Hypex NC400 mono kit amps?

Blizzard · Feb 10, 2016

joeinid said:
They arrived a little while ago. So far I am very happy. Nothing has beaten my ART monos yet. Summer is coming and these put out virtually no heat. Nice!

Yes they are extremely efficient. I'll share my impressions with the Sonic imagery's once I get the Nord buffer boards. This amp is a tweaker's paradise as you can transform it into something new every week if you want. I bet there's at least 20 opamps that would work with it. Some as low as only $2 each! for example the LM4562 that the amps like the $10000 Acoustic Imagery Atash 1200 uses for the buffer stage are only $3.25 a piece!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM4562-Dual-HiFi-Audio-OpAmp-AUTHENTIC-LM4562NA-DIP-8-/160496917340

Blizzard · Feb 10, 2016

nc42acc said:
Hey Mike what are your thoughts on the Hypex NC400 mono kit amps?

They are very good. But the input buffer is designed for dead transparent 100% coloration free sound. Many people don't like that. The NC 500's in the Nord amp aren't just more powerful, they allow you to tweak the sound to your taste with the input buffer opamp. Having had the NC400's for over 3 years, the Nord amp is by far the better way to go. Not only that they are fully assembled and still cheaper than the NC400. This guy is making next to nothing on these. I know because I know what the cost of the parts he's using are. If they were sold through a distributor/dealer network, the price would be at minimum triple.

nc42acc · Feb 10, 2016

Thanks for the input. I think I will like the zero coloration of the NC400, this is what I am looking for.

System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

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