Torque - let's talk about it...

Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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Except for the TT of Bruce's friend, I strongly suspect the problem is unrelated to stylus drag.
Insert usual disclaimers here - Don

I think the TT was a Nottingham Spacedeck? Just read some of the REVIEWS. You DO have to start the platter with your hand.... geez...


Use "Fletcher didn’t even feel that an on/off switch was necessary; he expects you to start the platter spinning by hand." "Setup is relatively simple, provided you’re familiar with turntables."
 

Brian Walsh

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Jul 7, 2011
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I think the TT was a Nottingham Spacedeck? Just read some of the REVIEWS. You DO have to start the platter with your hand.... geez...

That is correct. There is no start/stop switch. You start the platter rotating by "helping" it start to rotate. Geez indeed. By definition a "non-starter" :b

On top of that, the tonearm wiring is very thin and fragile.
 

robbyd

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Dec 23, 2015
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I have to give mine a helping hand to start up as well; not any kind of problem though in real life.
You'd never expect a thin elastic 'band' to stand any chance against a 30kg platter really!:)
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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I would find that unacceptable as bad engineering but I am biased, natch. Pushing against the platter provides the potential for damage to the bearings, sleeve, and/or thrust washers or whatever is along the shaft. A thin elastic band to a heavy platter should still start, it just may take a while to spin up the platter. The only times I have dealt with TT's that didn't spin up it was a bad motor (usually just needing cleaning) or bad belt or idler wheel (slipping).
 

banpuku

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Apr 24, 2010
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I have owned 3 turntables in the last 15 years as follows:

Rockport Capella 2 (belt drive, medium mass platter, low friction bearing, low torque motor)

Brinkmann Balanced (belt drive, high mass platter, low friction bearing, low torque motor)

MA1 (rim drive, high mass platter, very high mass / friction bearing, high torque motor)

I designed the MA1 and outsourced the manufacturing of this ultra smooth, ultra quiet high end turntable. When compared to belt drive turntables that I have owned or heard, my MA1 has the PRAT and energy that very few turntables have. I decided to go with a high mass platter and high friction bearing for 2 reasons: 1. the high mass platter has high inertia which helps the platter move thru transients with less adverse impact 2) the high mass / friction bearing keeps the RIM drive motor engaged with plenty of torque such that any perturbations caused by the stylus will be easily overcome with little to no impact. Using the rudimentary wow/flutter test provided by fickert on the ipad, my wow/flutter measurement is less than 0.01%. I firmly believe that a high torque motor, high mass platter and a high friction / high mass bearing is a very good way to keep stable speed with excellent PRAT.

Thanks, Pat
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Pat, I can only get a link to the Technics SL-MA1 tt. I'm sure that's not the one you mean.
 

TBone

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I would find that unacceptable as bad engineering but I am biased, natch. Pushing against the platter provides the potential for damage to the bearings, sleeve, and/or thrust washers or whatever is along the shaft. A thin elastic band to a heavy platter should still start, it just may take a while to spin up the platter. The only times I have dealt with TT's that didn't spin up it was a bad motor (usually just needing cleaning) or bad belt or idler wheel (slipping).

Manually helping the platter start has longggg been a practice w/belters. Certainly, in my books, I'd never consider this an indication of "bad engineering". I've lifted many new & an old bearings, generally, major damage is based on neglecting long term oil requirements. A well built, properly designed and maintained bearing, esp those designed with the intended mass in mind, are very tough devices, near impossible to damage by mere hand alone ... and from a positive perspective, in many cases, manually assisting the platter helps maintain the health of your belt.
 

dan31

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Jul 22, 2010
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I always found the DPS belt driven design interesting as the bearing has drag designed to ensure the motor has a constant resistance to ensure speed stability.
 

TBone

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I always found the DPS belt driven design interesting as the bearing has drag designed to ensure the motor has a constant resistance to ensure speed stability.

I adopted this method within my main turntable bearing long ago, however it required considerable time & experimentation to get just-right; the amount of applied drag (in my case, viscosity) was critical to performance, reliant on dependencies involving types of motors, pulley(s) and most certainly belts.
 

banpuku

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Apr 24, 2010
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Pat, I can only get a link to the Technics SL-MA1 tt. I'm sure that's not the one you mean.

The MA1 is my own turntable that I designed and built. So, there are no online photos or information. It is not the Technics SL-MA1. If you want some info on the MA1, please let me know and I can post something.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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Manually helping the platter start has longggg been a practice w/belters. Certainly, in my books, I'd never consider this an indication of "bad engineering". I've lifted many new & an old bearings, generally, major damage is based on neglecting long term oil requirements. A well built, properly designed and maintained bearing, esp those designed with the intended mass in mind, are very tough devices, near impossible to damage by mere hand alone ... and from a positive perspective, in many cases, manually assisting the platter helps maintain the health of your belt.

I wouldn't either, but then....what do I know. I do know it was never, ever a problem with my Nottingham that I owned for 3 years.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Push a platter into action?
You'll be asking me to get my car going w/a starting handle next.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Push a platter into action?
You'll be asking me to get my car going w/a starting handle next.

You know why the Mini comes with a rear window defroster? It's to keep your hands warm when you're pushing that b**ch!
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Manually helping the platter start has longggg been a practice w/belters. Certainly, in my books, I'd never consider this an indication of "bad engineering". I've lifted many new & an old bearings, generally, major damage is based on neglecting long term oil requirements. A well built, properly designed and maintained bearing, esp those designed with the intended mass in mind, are very tough devices, near impossible to damage by mere hand alone ... and from a positive perspective, in many cases, manually assisting the platter helps maintain the health of your belt.

All Linn owners have used this method since the beginning. I see no reason why this is unacceptable and it has never given me a second thought. As to torque, I cannot see why this should really be an issue, so long as the speed accuracy and consistency is taken of. The more important thing with TT's, IME, is that they have great isolation from their surroundings. I think if one has taken care of speed accuracy and turntable isolation...then torque is not a factor. Talking of isolation, that is why I believe a belt drive has some very important contributions to the isolation factor...because it isolates the motor from the platter. The dreaded 'cogging' ( which IMHO is still a factor with all direct drive motors to a greater or lesser extent) is no longer a factor with a belt drive. Far more important, IMHO is for the table to have an excellent bearing...a poor bearing with a very torquey drive is not what I would call a great design.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I still recall my experience in 2002; when I first set up the Rockport Sirius III. up till that time I'd had belt drive tt's, and my previous one was the Rockport Sirius II S.E.....not chopped liver and it had a heavy platter.

I had not really ever heard the term 'groove modulation' prior to that. the Sirius III is a direct drive unit with a 55 pound platter. for the first time I heard musical peaks without distortion. I had previously figured that my reference for those musical moments was just a recording and mastering reality. now I recognized it as a speed stability and drive/torque issue. since that time I've preferred a dd or idler. i'll admit that since then occasionally I've heard belt drives that seem to get this part too, but only a few.

until you hear a high level direct drive or idler (or super uber belt drive) sail thru a musical peak without any groove modulation issue you won't know what you are missing. belt drive turntables can otherwise sound superb and this is an issue maybe more of degrees of good rather than good bad. but my experience in 2002 was definitely a leap to another level on this issue and it biased me going forward.

so assuming a low torque tt is not having groove modulation issues is wrong until you directly compare it to another tt which has lots of torque to see what you might be missing. that is how listening references work, until you hear better you assume all is ok.
 

DaveyF

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Mike, what you say makes sense, except I suspect you may be mistaking an issue with speed control/consistency vs. torque. If the platter is held to a very consistent speed and does not vary through the various groove modulations, then I can see no reason why torque would be a factor. Remember, we are not ( hopefully) using the stylus as a cutter. The amount of force needed to keep the stylus in the groove as it transits the record is really not that great. Same thing for the inertia of the platter ( once it has reached its required speed)....so long as one has excellent speed control.
Now, whether speed control is easier with a more massive platter that would have more inertia, that is another question entirely.:)
 

Mike Lavigne

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Mike, what you say makes sense, except I suspect you may be mistaking an issue with speed control/consistency vs. torque. If the platter is held to a very consistent speed and does not vary through the various groove modulations, then I can see no reason why torque would be a factor. Remember, we are not ( hopefully) using the stylus as a cutter. The amount of force needed to keep the stylus in the groove as it transits the record is really not that great. Same thing for the inertia of the platter ( once it has reached its required speed)....so long as one has excellent speed control.
Now, whether speed control is easier with a more massive platter that would have more inertia, that is another question entirely.:)

exactly what is exactly causing what becomes conjecture when we are trying to resolve performance differences between turntables. what contribution the platter mass, speed controller precision/feedback loop, drive system and even the bearing type is hard to pinpoint for sure.

speed accuracy verses speed stability?

inertia verses torque?

I can only say that direct drive seemed to clearly get musical peaks 'more' right to my ears. even later when I had the Technics SP-10 Mk2, and SP-10 Mk3, then later Kodo 'The Beat' and now finally with the Wave Kinetics NVS......they all seem to get heavily modulated grooves 'more right' than all but the very tip top of belt driven tt's. there is more to tt performance than this issue, but it's important I think.

I even had the original Grand Prix Audio Monaco DD turntable with a Dynavector arm in my system for a year......which sounded a bit 'lightweight' in it's original rendition.

exactly the degree of influence torque has on my preference I cannot say. but I know that my Garrard 301 idler had a magical grip on me due to it's forward lean 'drive' to the music, if at the expense of refinement to some degree. that's one torque monster.

I think the lesson is to compare and trust your ears and feelings. if more torque sounds better, it is better. but you do have to investigate to know.
 
Last edited:

jeromelang

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Dec 26, 2011
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Only change one variable at one time.... mantra, mantra, mantra.

Same table, different varieties of motors with different torque capabilities - that's how proper evaluations should be done.

Certainly not by using different tables.
 

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